Thread: Saw Logo

I've not seen a factory-breasted panel saw, Picko, but I have seen quite a few small saws with curved tooth lines, usually it's convex, but some were the other way (concave). I've always assumed that was due to poor jointing (or not jointing at all)

Breasting a long saw is supposed to compensate for the arc our wrist describes as we extend our arm. I've only ever seen it done on ripsaws but that may be because I haven't seen that many breasted saws. Not that many breasted saws are kicking about these days so I don't know how popular they were back in the day (or were they so loved by their owners they used 'em all up?). My big ripsaw has a straight tooth line, but manages to gnaw its way through a plank very satisfactorily. I'd love to compare it with a breasted saw of the same pitch & length & tpi to see what difference it makes....

Cheers,

Yeah this one's convex Ian (about 3mm). I've only seen it once before and that was a bloke I worked with in the 70's who had a Sandvik 7pt hand saw with a convex camber. He swore by it, and at the time I thought it must have been an off the shelf thing. I can't ask him about it now though because he's sadly no longer with us. Oh and it looks like I've just learnt something new, (breasted) and when you think about it the camber would have to be convex for that term to fit.

I had always thought breasted saws were common, but there is in fact little reference to it in the literature and I have not really been conscious of it in the flesh. With only an 1/8" variance it may not be that noticeable.

I knew I had seen reference to it back in the day. This is from a 1916 Simonds publication:

How to File a Hand Saw . Simonds 1916.jpg

Bigger is better:

How to File a Hand Saw . Simonds 1916 detail.png

Having pointed to that, I have never seen any reference to breasted saws in the catalogues. I would agree with Ian that it would normally only be used on a rip saw. However, the logging crosscut saws (one man and two man) are very breasted: All of them without exception!

Regards
Paul

A new Pax saw comes with a breasted toothline: Pax Handsaws - Thomas Flinn & Co Ltd.

My Pax Sanderson Newbould panel saw from the 30's or so also has a slightly breasted toothline, but I have no way of knowing whether this is original. Lovely saws, though.

Well my memory is probably playing tricks but I would've sworn black & blue that the breasting I'd seen was more than 1/8th of an inch. Whatever it was, it was certainly enough that you could plainly see the curve. I'm wondering if subsequent sharpening increased the original curve a bit, which can happen to straight saws, as mentioned.

Yes, two-man crosscut saws leave you in no doubt they meant it! The curve needs to be more pronounced, I would think, because the long two-handed stroke pulls the saw up quite markedly as you draw back. The rocking action isn't as pronounced when cutting horizontally, as when felling, you use your body as well as your arms doing that, but if you've ever watched a saw in action when docking a log, you'll have seen the way it rocks like a see-saw. Something that just occurred to me is that a curved blade has fewer teeth dragging along the bottom of the cut, making it a bit easier to pull - any small energy saving add up to a lot by the end of the day!

I doubt many of us use any kind of arm-powered saw for hours at a time any more, so it's moot if a breasted handsaw would save enough energy for an occasional user to benefit significantly. The last time I used mine for more than 10 minutes at one time was to break down some very hefty chunks of radiata that were too heavy for me to manage over my 17" bandsaw.

4 first piece ripped.jpg

I was reminded how quickly a sharp 5-3tpi saw can chew its way through a chunk of wood (those cuts were over 150mm deep & not quite 2M long). That is, after I sharpened it. I started on the first cut & after making very slow progress for the first 300mm or so I got the message it needed some attention. The difference after a bit of TLC from the files (you need two different sizes of file to sharpen the beast), was pretty stark. After the number of years I've been pushing saws you wouldn't think I need to be reminded that keeping them sharp is fairly important....

Cheers,

Hi Picko. Great looking handle- what's it made from?

Hi Ian. Funny you should be talking about ripping timber by hand. I had to make some 12mm think "veneers" for a client (using original sections of rough sawn Oregon blocking from between rafters to cover up replacement beams by re installing now thinner blocking over the top). Blocking started out 47mm thick and 190mm wide. I was able to cut 80mm in from each side with the tablesaw but, because my bandsaw's throat is too short, the remaining 30mm section had to be cut by hand. Boards were around 1200mm long and took roughly 12 minutes each. Nine of them meant about 2 hours of consistent (ish) work. First 5 were done before morning tea, the next 4 took longer with breaks in between (and 1 resharpen). Hard work but at least I could charge for it. Saw is a Disston 7 4ppi 28" long.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Hi Picko. Great looking handle- what's it made from?

Thanks MA, it's Boree (Acacia pendula).

Originally Posted by Picko

Thanks MA, it's Boree (Acacia pendula).

I would never have picked it as A. pendula, Picko. The few bits of weeping myall (another name for it) I've had were all very deep brown with a faint purplish hue when fresh, changing to a deep brown after drying & exposure: haul reduced.jpg

Your sample looks interesting - is that striped pattern common where you are?

I've made a few small saw handles from a fiddle-backed piece I picked up at a woodshow, it was the toughest bit of wood I've ever encountered & quite took the shine off one of my expensive rasps. It was also the gummiest wood I've ever struck. Even after long drying it still exuded gum whenever I made a fresh cut:
Figured Myall.jpg

It did polish up nicely, though some bits had to be re-polished when more gum came out & spoiled the finish..

Cheers,

And you're right of course Ian. I just went and compared it with something I've used Boree in before and it's nothing like it.
So what is this log that's been standing beside my bandsaw for 4-5 years that I 'knew' was Boree. Well it was standing, but now appears to be laying down.

Pic_0415_794.jpg

The only other logs of that size that I can recall having were Pickly Acacia.

Darn! I thought maybe you had a local clone of Myall/Boree that was different and really interesting.

I have the same trouble at times, trying to work out what the heck a piece of wood is - usually it's sawn, so no bark or even sapwood to give me a clue. I don't even have a wild suggestion as to what you've got there, but if you can get a good id, please let us know for future reference. The grain does look acacia-ish, but that doesn't mean much, unfortunately - it narrows it down to maybe 700-odd choices....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

... Breasting a long saw is supposed to compensate for the arc our wrist describes as we extend our arm. I've only ever seen it done on ripsaws but that may be because I haven't seen that many breasted saws. ...

I thought breasting was quite common, perhaps the norm, on the old two-handed cross cut saws that were used in the bush prior to the chainsaw takeover. The ones that I have seen in barns and museums would have had around 50 mm of convex arching and have been 2 to 2.5 metres long.

They are still used in competitive sawing.

Sawing Competition.jpg Stephen and David Foster

Originally Posted by IanW

Darn! I thought maybe you had a local clone of Myall/Boree that was different and really interesting.

I have the same trouble at times, trying to work out what the heck a piece of wood is - usually it's sawn, so no bark or even sapwood to give me a clue. I don't even have a wild suggestion as to what you've got there, but if you can get a good id, please let us know for future reference. The grain does look acacia-ish, but that doesn't mean much, unfortunately - it narrows it down to maybe 700-odd choices....

Cheers,

We'll never know Ian.
IF the log is from where I think I got it some ten years or more ago, the story is - Someone I went to school with rings me and says that I might be interested in some trees that he has pushed over on his farm before they get burnt. When I go to have a look there's a large pile of 2 or 3 mixed species but by this time the leaves are all dried and gone. I recognise some as White Cedar and when I ask what the other bigger pieces might be he said "you know, that prickly acacia that everyone has growing around their sheep yards". So that's about as close as we're ever likely to get. The only thing that I can say that someone might recognise about it, is that the smell when working it is a little like vinegar.

Originally Posted by Picko

We'll never know Ian....

Well, I suppose we can never be certain about anything in this world Picko, but you do have a clue to go on & odour is often a very useful identifier. It sounds like it could be the introduced pest species, A. nilotica, aka prickly acacia. I tried looking up images for its wood, but although I found several pics that look like your saw handle, they are not clearly identified as A. nilotica, just "acacia" so not very reliable. But it's such a widespread pest around the country, there must be s few woodies who've tried it & could tell us what it smells like. Maybe if you asked in the 'timber' forum someone will tell us all about it?

A. nilotica has a huge distribution in its native range & goes by several common names, e.g. "Kikar" in Pakistan. From the descriptions I read (sans pictures, unfortunately), it seems like it's quite decent stuff. I found quite a few pics of kikar wood furniture - all heavily painted.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

....I thought breasting was quite common, perhaps the norm, on the old two-handed cross cut saws that were used in the bush prior to the chainsaw takeover....

Indeed Graeme, see Paul's post (#34). I've seen quite a few of the beasts in my time, & not just at the local agricultural show - my father attached me to the end of one at a very early age! It's the breasting of handsaws that's the issue & how common/uncommon that was.

The fact that it doesn't seem to be mentioned in catalogues is curious, it might indicate it was so common it didn't need to be mentioned, or that it was not very common. (Not very helpful, I know!)

Ian