Thread: Looking for a Bow Saw similar to the type Tage Frid used

Are you talking about the large bow saw he uses or the saw he uses to cut dovetail pins thats about 300mm?

You may make your own with the grammercy bow saw kit Gramercy Tools Bow Saw Kits and Parts
or alternatively they sell a 300mm saw.
Dictum sell a range of new bow saws and blades
There are antiques or garage sale finds. If you are in Melb there are some on the wall of the vintage tool shop in northcote

Here is a reliable source for both the saws and blades in Germany.
Frame Saws, Bow Saws, Turning Saws | FINE TOOLS

In my view, the Japanese blades are best. Suggest you get a kit and make your own frame.

Taylor Toolworks in the USA has a good coping saw kit. I've made one.
Here's the link.

Oz, I always say that making tools deepens your understanding & appreciation of them & rolling your own bowsaw would be a very good introduction to tool making. It's not a difficult project, there are several ways to make the parts that hold the blade; my first ever effort was cobbled up using hardware store bolts and wire. It wasn't terribly pretty but worked:

Ash bowsaw red.jpg

I had trouble finding suitable cord for it at the time, so I made that wire tensioner, which did the job, but was pretty fugly.

The main problem with vers 1 was the frame was unnecessarily heavy & it was not a very nice tool to use. In later versions, like the one I use now, I fined things down a bit. The wattle I used is plenty strong and makes a much lighter and better "balanced" tool. I discovered venetian blind cord is dirt cheap & comes in various thicknesses. It works well, but is a bit more 'stretchy' than ideal (in a discussion some years ago, it was suggested to try cord made for boating, which I still haven't gotten around to).

This is the one I use most often, it has a 10" blade ~ 4mm wide.
Turning saw Wattle.jpg

I also have a larger 12" model that is handy once in a while, but the small turning saw gets the most use in my shed.
Size cf.jpg

I've followed the British tradition in the shape & style of the wooden parts, the style Frid is using in the illustration you included is very similar to the saws sold by Fine Tools. They use a thick beam, mortised to take the end pieces. The heavy beam would alter its centre of gravity compared with the British style, and may make it easier to use, but never having used one, that's just conjecture. Someday I'll have to try one, just to see.....

Cheers,

Thank you Ian. I'm just restarting woodworking after a 40+ year gap where living, children and a professional life got in the way.

I've sourced a bow saw on eBay that needs some repairs and I'll use that as the start of my bow saw journey. I was especially interested in Tage's model as he used it for ripping as well as cross cut.s-l64.jpg

I've got Tage's instructions for making his bow saw and will give it a go. Fine Tools in DE sell a 600 or 700mm composite Japanese blade suitable for ripping and cross-cutting. Only downside is the horrific postage getting one to AU. I've asked Japanese Tools here if they can source blades like the ones Fine Tools have but they don't know the blade's manufactured source and therefore cannot.

It seems most bow saws are used as coping saws. My use for a bow saw is for larger pieces and work.

Locally, where do you purchase the shorter blades ... ??

Originally Posted by Ozymandiaz

... It seems most bow saws are used as coping saws. My use for a bow saw is for larger pieces and work. ...

No, that is not quite absolutely correct. There are two very different traditions in the use of bow saws - Continental countries and Anglo countries.

Anglo countries - UK, Ireland, USA, Aus, NZ, etc. In these countries bow saws with blade from 6-15mm, sometimes 20 mm, are used almost exclusively for cutting curves, and for most woodworkers are a minor component of the tool box. For cutting straight lines - ripping and cross-cutting - panel saws absolutely dominate.

Continental countries - Scandinavia, Germany, EU. In these countries bow saws with blade from 20-30 mm, sometimes 40 mm, are used for cutting straight lines, and for most woodworkers are a major component of the tool box. For cutting curves, the woodworker changes blades in his frame saw to 5-15 mm. Frames saws dominate over panel saws in the woodworkers toolbox.

Tage Frit was Danish and very continental. In most of the viseos he is using a frame saw to cut straight lines; I do not recall one where he uses a panel saw. I think he did his apprenticeship on a frame saw and in USA saw no need to change. My experience is that I do not saw as straight as Tage Frit!

Shorter blades - I have just cut up a larger blade. (eg A 700 mm blade gave a 250 plus a 450 mm blade.) Also you can use bits of bans saw blades - butchers meat cutting ones have a good tooth pattern.

Originally Posted by Ozymandiaz

......It seems most bow saws are used as coping saws. My use for a bow saw is for larger pieces and work......

As Graeme said, in Europe & Asia, framed saws are used almost exclusively for cabinetry & carpentry, there is little tradition for "backed" saws and the standard handsaws of "Anglo" tradition. The beauty of framed saws is they are very easy to put together from a variety of materials that are easily found or modified for the purpose. I've seen some very basic frame saws in S.E. Asia, but in practised hands, they worked at least as well as my "fancy" western saws. I think backsaws & handsaws or Japnese pull saws are a bit easier to master for a beginner, it does take a bit more practice to wield bowsaws with the skill & panache of a Frid or a Klausz, but it's obviously do-able. I admit I found bowsaws a bit tricky at first, and even though I'm reasonably familiar with them now, I would struggle to cut dovetails with the speed & accuracy Frid used to demonstrate - I'm much too rusted-on to my backsaws for those sorts of jobs. My bowsaws are mostly used as "turning saws" in the British tradition, & though I do have some wider blades & use them once in a while for straight cuts, it's not very often.

Originally Posted by Ozymandiaz

...Locally, where do you purchase the shorter blades ... ??

As you are discovering, in countries with little tradition for using bowsaws, the choice of blades available commercially is extremely limited to non-existent. European sellers like Dieter Schmidt are your best bet, but as noted, postage has become a killer.

I make my own blades, but not everyone wants to go that route. As Graeme said, you can cut down longer blades to whatever length you need. Some people cut up bandsaw blades, but they are not very suitable as a rule, the pitch is too coarse and they usually have positive rake, which makes for rough & uncomfortable sawing when driven by muscle power. Blades for meat saws are generally around 12 tpi & iirc, they usually have -ve rake like handsaw teeth, so might be worth following up.

You can re-tooth a bit of bandsaw blade of a suitable gauge to a pitch & rake more suited to handwork, but you will need to cut off the impulse-hardened teeth before taking to one with a file.

So don't be discouraged by a few setbacks, there are ways & means to get what you want if you are prepared to chase them up...

Cheers,
Ian

I bought a 700mm frame saw blade from Dieter Schmidt. I had the chance to pick one up when I visited the Fatherland.

I used it to make this frame saw for resawing.



I am planning to also make a frame for the blade as you showed above for ripping.

In hindsight I should have bought 2 blades.

Note that I bought the western tooth geometry and not Japanese.

I am also thinking of cutting down an old hand saw plate. However the framesaw blades seem to be thinner and therefore also leave a thinner kerf.

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Originally Posted by Cklett

... I am also thinking of cutting down an old hand saw plate. However the framesaw blades seem to be thinner and therefore also leave a thinner kerf.....

Ck, apart from thickness, old hand saw blades were tapered toe to heel as well as top to bottom. It probably wouldn't affect function of a narrow blade made from a tapered saw, but as you mentioned, the blade may be a bit thick for the purpose - typically 38-40 thou thick (close to 1mm), at the heel on a large saw. A thicker blade will not affect speed of cut at a given tpi, but thicker blades remove a bit more wood per stroke & require a bit more power input. You may not notice the difference in 5 minutes of sawing, but it might add up to a bit more fatigue on a long day....

Originally Posted by Cklett

.... Note that I bought the western tooth geometry and not Japanese.....

Probably wise if you intend getting stuck into ironbark or the likes. There has been much said about the fragility of Japamese style teeth when fed to our hard hardwoods. Besides being a bit more robust, 'western' style teeth are a lot easier to sharpen for an amateur. I've done minor touch-ups on Japanese teeth, but would not want to have to re-do a badly worn set, or cut in a fresh lot of them. You don't find the required files in any old hardware store, either!

Keeping your saws sharp is the best favour you can do for yourself, and the easier that is to achieve, the better, in my book...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

... 'western' style teeth are a lot easier to sharpen for an amateur. I've done minor touch-ups on Japanese teeth, but would not want to have to re-do a badly worn set, or cut in a fresh lot of them. ...

I do use Japanese style saws - both bow saws and dozukis - and I touch up the teeth constantly with a diamond feather file. These blades are regarded as expendable and I am extending their life rather than refurbishing them.

The mind absolutely boggles at the thought of cutting a fresh set of Japanese style teeth - I wouldn't know how to set it up, how to start or even what file(s) to use.

The steel in Japanese saw teeth is usually too hard for anything softer than diamond.

Originally Posted by Ozymandiaz

Sawing_by_Hand.jpg Sawing_by_Hand2.jpg
In his instructions on how to make his bow saw Tage notes "Personally I would not go through all the trouble of making a bow saw. The wood parts are easy, but the metal parts take time, and I can buy a good bowsaw ready-made for less than $20."

Well those days are well behind us and I'm looking to acquire or, if necessary, make a saw like this.

Problem is, all saws I've seen on eBay are advertised at 'collector's' pricing. Can anyone point me in the direction of a maker of these saws. Secondarily, does anyone have one they'd like to sell .... ??

If I was to make one, do you think parts scavenged from a hacksaw would suffice to hold the ends of a longer blade designed for wood ... ?? Where could I acquire the sort of blade I would need to emulate Tage's bow saw setup ... ??

Looking forward to your input/s

you need to make one, but look around for chinese supply plain steel bowsaw blades. and then build a saw around them. I've tinkered a large amount with this, all the way up to folding a "dovetail blade" of 1095 and using it in a frame saw (that was klausz, though, wasn't it?).

I've got the 700mm ECE saw - it's a good saw, but it's not that easy to find a place for it if you have good western saws and it's a bit bulky for fine work, and in my opinion, more tiring to use for ripping than a western saw and leaves a less accurate saw line to clean up with planes.

if anything, you'd want to build a taller lighter version of that for joinery, and it wouldn't have to be as long, but larger than a small turning saw.

Look around for brass rod-topped mujingfang and other chinese saws with rotating pins for the blade. They will not be as large, but they are a good starting point if someone is importing them or shipping them in without tripling the cost.

Also, don't be afraid to buy bandsaw blades in various tooth patterns. A 3 tooth hook blade will cut big material better than any typical 60 degree tooth pattern saw I've seen, but it's very harsh on the backside of a cut. No good for joinery, but very good at cutting large items (guitar bodies, profiled legs, etc).

All you have to do is bend bandsaw blades twice at a mark, then get a good quality drill bit that you can resharpen and drill holes in the ends and you can saw.

I have not tried this with joinery size blades because bandsaw blades usually have a lot of set, but if you could find a low-set blade, it would make a dandy joinery blade.

I've cut a lot of chisel blanks out of bar stock with the 700mm saw and segments of bimetal portaband blades. it's very pleasant to do and far faster than a handsaw, but sadly, the blades last much longer being used in a portaband than they do under the slow speed and pressure of a portaband, so I've stopped.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Also, don't be afraid to buy bandsaw blades in various tooth patterns. A 3 tooth hook blade will cut big material better than any typical 60 degree tooth pattern saw I've seen, but it's very harsh on the backside of a cut. No good for joinery, but very good at cutting large items (guitar bodies, profiled legs, etc).

All you have to do is bend bandsaw blades twice at a mark, then get a good quality drill bit that you can resharpen and drill holes in the ends and you can saw.

I have not tried this with joinery size blades because bandsaw blades usually have a lot of set, but if you could find a low-set blade, it would make a dandy joinery blade.

I've cut a lot of chisel blanks out of bar stock with the 700mm saw and segments of bimetal portaband blades. it's very pleasant to do and far faster than a handsaw, but sadly, the blades last much longer being used in a portaband than they do under the slow speed and pressure of a portaband, so I've stopped.

Firewood saws.jpg

I use this frame saw with repurposed bi-metal bandsaw blades that I resharpen to my preferred tooth pattern with diamond wheels. This one is used primarily for crosscutting small dry branches for firewood.

The design is simple with the only hardware, other than the blade, being the tensioning metal rod and winged nut that is easily made and provides far more tension than stretchy twine.

It could be used for ripping smaller lengths with the right tooth pattern, but I prefer the one/two-man saw below it for longer rips in logs. I like the extended length of the handle for two handed operation.

If you are adding a neg or neutral rake to teeth this doesn't need to be the full depth of the tooth to begin with... it is only the very tip of the tooth that is doing the work. The rest is just gullet that transports the shavings out of the cut. Unlike standard bandsaw blades a good bi-metal bandsaw blade allows for lots of reshaping without compromise to its hardening.

I haven't used this frame saw design for joinery work, but I can't see why a version of it couldn't be used for that purpose.

that style of saw was referred to as a buck saw in the US and was in wide use cutting firewood before the chainsaw became affordable.

We had one on the wall when I was a kid - it belonged to my grandfather. i'd imagine it was practical and worked well because they were everywhere and without giant teeth and high weight that would grab a law held in a wye to be cut. No industrially difficult large tensioned saw plate, either - just a short strip of spring temper steel.