Thread: Montague-Woodrough Saw Co - Bundy Patent

Gosh, I don't know what joel is thinking with that first saw. I'm sure it's well made, but it looks like a saw from the 1950s. I briefly tried to file a pattern like that on a kerfing saw last year, and it wasn't trouble to file, but I didn't notice any benefit from the gullet.

Saws like that crosscut quickly (and roughly), but they don't rip as well as a standard rip saw.

Gavin, I have no idea how the teeth are cut initially, but hand-sharpening them presents no problem; obviously a bit more fussy than simple patterns, but not that much. You only sharpen the teeth routinely, the deep gullets remain untouched. Over time the 'working teeth' section gets worn down and the big gullets need to be deepened to preserve the configuration. My dad took our crosscut saws over to a sawdoc to have that done - I never saw what machinery he used, but the saws came back with neat, even gullets.

I remain to be convinced hat those weird tooth patterns do much for handsaws. The rate at which my nice old Disston thumbhole (5-3 tpi variable pitch) can rip its way through a hardwood plank is pretty gratifying. AS D.W. suggests, having a dedicated rip saw and a crosscut saw probably saves a lot more time & effort than a 'hybrid' in the long term....

Cheers,

Not the best marketing video ever ...

Kinda looks like it wants some set. Also lacking a little presence and authority.

I'm gunna go out on a limb and say I wouldn't pay $200 for that saw.

I reckon they could have found someone a bit more used to hand sawing for their demonstrator, Paul! He was really leaning on that saw, wasn't he? And making short, choppy strokes - not pretty! The saw seemed to me to cut ok, though, given a chance & not forced so hard.

At the risk of being accused of being a reactionary, I just cannot see the logic in those monster gullets - they certainly aren't necessary to carry the sawdust load in 2" thick material! I'd like to see some truly convincing demonstration of what they actually contribute.

You're right, it would require a much more pursuasive demonstration to get old sceptics like us to part with $200....

Cheers,

Well Ian, comments on sharpening your Dads crosscut saws got me thinking and I did a little research. I came across a copy of Grimshaw’s book “Saw Filing and Management”. First written in 1882 and updated by the author in 1901 and again in 1912.
https://ia600203.us.archive.org/3/it...00grimrich.pdf
In it, as well as filing and shaping and polishing your handsaws, circular saws and bandsaws it describes “gumming”, which is the shaping of the gullet. Gumming may be done with punches, rotating steel wheels or emery wheels. See p21.
It also refers to Mixter’s Gummer. The king of gummers apparently.
Mixters Catalog here: https://ia601907.us.archive.org/19/i...0Catalogue.pdf

Looks like a beaut contraption!
28ED0AEE-E165-490B-8982-11C6C0EE2548.jpg

Looks a bit unwieldy for a hand saw, think I’d invest in a punch.

Well there you go! A 'gummer' eh? Interesting that it used a milling cutter - in my ignorance I'd assumed you would use a small grinding wheel, but now I think about it, the wear on a wheel would be considerable and you'd be constantly replacing them. CBN wheels were still a long way in the future in 1901.

I assume my dad's saw-doc used something similar to get the perfectly neat & regular gullets the saws came back with. Y'know, I have this dim recollection of seeing something similar in a pile of old stuff, somewhere, a long time ago. Not having a clue what it was, I would not have made the connection with gulleting (have to remember the proper term - gumming!) circular saws, let alone crosscuts. With the extinction of saw-docs, no doubt a few gumming machines are languishing in land-fill, waiting to be discovered by the archeologists of the future......

Cheers,

Gavin

TFWW saw is not new but similar to the Disston D17 (Double Duty saw). I will post pix later. I have one somewhere. Atkins produced a triple duty universal saw tat had a similar use but had an "M" tooth pattern. I believe the deep gullets were most useful for unseasoned wood (particularly soft woods).

Regards
Paul

Atkins produced their Matchless and Universal saws. This is from the 1906 catalogue:

2018-04-24 21_22_51-Atkins 1906.jpg ‎- Photos.jpg

This is from the 1919 catalogue. The matchless has been dropped, the universal has been "improved".

Atkins 1919 cat Universal saw.jpg

In 1923 the Universal is still improved and the Tripple Duty saw has been introduced.

Atkins universal and Tripple Duty. 1923.jpg

Very reminiscent of the Disston D17.

Disston D17 1918 catalogue (2).png

I have no knowledge of the back saws with such teeth.

Regards
Paul

those first three saws have log saw tooth patterns on them. I'm guessing that all of these were intended for construction sites where the wood could be green or dry and mostly soft.

The disston pattern is a little different. Not sure what to make of it.

Originally Posted by IanW

I reckon they could have found someone a bit more used to hand sawing for their demonstrator, Paul!

The video suggested that it's Joel. joel's actually got enough experience to saw well, but I think he's fighting the lack of set on that saw and can't get a full stroke in with it. I probably wouldn't have posted the video like that.

If we're honest with community, most woodworkers buy tools that look like a good idea and then use them little (at least based on the used premium tools I've gotten. Many are unused, and plenty of planes several years old still have their primary factory bevel). So the lack of set may not make any difference!!

The white pine we have here can stop the nicest saw - it always goes one way or the other when you cut it by hand, either binding or opening. but it's not like he was far enough into the cut to have that bind due to that.

I just finished a lending library and I cut the trim by hand from pine construction lumber (the neighborhood is paying for the materials since it's going in our neighborhood park, so I went cheap). Resawing some of the pine was a chore until the cut was deep enough to place a wedge in the kerf. Not something you expect with dry lumber!!

I realised as soon as I posted that I was being too smart-a's'd. My apologies to Joel, or whoever it is. If the saw is so hard to use that an experienced person has to fight it like that, then you are dead right, the video is more damnation than commendation.....

My thoughts on the Atkins and Disston saws are that those models are a compromise. None of them are exactly the same and while there is a resemblance to the logging saws, they are on a much smaller scale. The disston and the Atkins' Universal saws had conventional teeth at the toe and heel.

The Disston has groups of crosscut teeth alternated with a couple of rip teeth. I sold one of these saws a while back (and I have another somewhere ). The conventional teeth are sharpened just as you would expect. I used a warding file to deepen the gullets as they had clearly never been tackled.

Atkins and Disston described these saws as equally good at cross cutting, ripping and mitering. I suspect they were aimed at the house builders and particularly the log cabin style. Again with that type of carpentry the timber was quite likely unseasoned and the deep gullets may well have assisted sawdust removal in the timbers used for construction. I can't see these saws being used for cabinet construction.

The saw I restored and sharpened was a surprisingly good performer.

Regards
Paul

Hello Paul,

the tooth pattern on the Atkins triple duty saw that you posted is vey similar to the tooth pattern of a drag saw
except they have sets of 4 cutter teeth with a raker tooth pointing forward for half the length of the blade then
the raker tooth will point towards the rear for the other half. This causes the saw dust to be drawn out of the kerf
in both directions with the push and pull strokes.

Sorry if this has wandered away from the start of your original thread, but maybe the hand saw manufactures were
trying to copy on a smaller hand operated scale what things like drag saws were capable of????

Below are some pictures of a drag saw blade.

Graham.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Atkins and Disston described these saws as equally good at cross cutting, ripping and mitering.

Of course the phrase equally good at is logically equivalent to equally bad at. It doesn’t mean that they’re good, just equal at all three tasks.