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  1. #1
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    Default Planes- Types and Angle?

    Hi all

    A few quick questions:

    1. What is the difference between a 'low-angle" plane and a normal plane. What will having a low angle achieve?

    2. My understanding so far of planes is pretty basic: ( and basically follows the principle the longer the sole length the less stock removed?)
    -Smoothing plane- one of the shortest planes- will follow any curves in the wood and therefore the wood needs to be jointed before use.. obviously used for smoothing jointed wood. (Whats the difference to the slightly larger jack plane-- will this plane being shorter remove more stock?)
    -Jack plane: short enough sole it will follow some bends in the wood and is for removing relatively large amounts of stock, should be used before jointing to get desired thickness (again not sure why you could not use this as a smoothing plane after jointing the wood)
    - jointing plane- very long- will " joint" the wood as it wont follow the curves in the wood
    - block planes: small planes can be used to smooth and polish small areas/end grain, flush trim

    In order of use: get to desired thickness with scrub/jack plane, jointing plane to get rid of hills and valleys, then smooth and polish?

    3. Would you joint before taking off bulk stock, or after, as above?

    Thanks all.
    P.S I only have a number 7 jointing plane at this stage as it is all I have needed but plan to treat myself to a jack or block plane over xmas. Any opinions on which? Will also start another thread on beefing up a Stanely no 7

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  3. #2
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    Welcome to Hand Tools - Unpowered.



    My understanding so far of planes is pretty basic: ( and basically follows the principle the longer the sole length the less stock removed?)
    I'd say that's a misconception, the amount the plane takes off (thickness of shaving) is much more to do with how the plane is set up than length of the plane and a nice thick shaving is easier to do with a big heavy plane.

    Traditionally (and practically) the order of use of bench planes is Jack plane #5 to remove high spots and saw marks, then a jointer #7 to make sure everything is nice and straight, then a smoother #4 to take out some of the marks you made while you were waving the jointer around.


    I'd pick the block plane for the self-Santa. Very useful, I use bench planes occasionally now, block planes nearly every time I make something from wood.
    We don't know how lucky we are......

  4. #3
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    Absolutely essential are

    Block plane
    Jack plane
    Jointer plane
    Smoothing plane

    followed by in no particular order

    Scrub plane
    Rabbet plane
    Router plane
    Shoulder plane
    Plow plane

    What have i forgotten ...

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    1. What is the difference between a 'low-angle" plane and a normal plane. What will having a low angle achieve?
    I can't resist the obvious answer. It will lower the angle of the blade.

    But you probably meant, why are there different bed angle for plane blades? The answer to that is long, and there are differing opinions as to the function & usefulness of each. In general, very low angle planes attack the wood at a lower angle. It's not as simple as the bedding angle, because when you drop that below about 35 degrees, you don't have enough clearance behind the cutting edge at traditional grinding/honing angles. The solution is to flip the blade over & have the bevel on top, hence the nomenclature Bevel up (BU) & bevel down (BD). However, now you have the blade bevel contributing to the attack angle, or cutting angle, or whatever you want to call it.

    So for example, if you take a 'standard' BD plane, it has a bed angle of 45*, and for BD planes with parallel blades, the cutting or attack angle is the same as the bed angle. It is typical to grind blades to around 25 degrees & hone a secondary bevel of about 30 degrees, which gives you a clearance angle of 15 degrees in a BD plane with a 45 degree bed angle. Now, if you flipped the blade & put it in a plane which had a bed angle of 15 degrees (which is quite a low angle), you have got the same clearance angle and the same attack angle. Yet most things being equal, you will have a different plane, which behaves quite differently from the standard angle job. Why? The answer is complex, and subject to much debate! My take is that it has much to do with the vector of the force on the blade and the blade retention system, but I've forgotten too much maths to attempt a 'proof' of my theorem. Just accept that the low angle blades will do certain jobs well, like planing end-grain, which introduces a very high level of pressure against the cutting edge compared with side-grain. However, it's still possible to plane end grain quite successfully with 'high angle' planes (think HNT Gordon planes), which is one of the reasons I think it has much to do with blade retention systems & the damping actions of the bed.

    You can also go in the opposite direction & raise the attack angle. This has the effect of increasing the force required to take off a shaving, but decreases the risk of the wood chipping out ahead of the cutting edge, which is why high-angle planes are preferred for planing some types of cranky-grained wood.

    Your other questions on lengths of plane & uses have been answered, I think....

    Cheers,
    IW

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    I can't resist the obvious answer. It will lower the angle of the blade.

    But you probably meant, why are there different bed angle for plane blades? The answer to that is long, and there are differing opinions as to the function & usefulness of each. In general, very low angle planes attack the wood at a lower angle. It's not as simple as the bedding angle, because when you drop that below about 35 degrees, you don't have enough clearance behind the cutting edge at traditional grinding/honing angles. The solution is to flip the blade over & have the bevel on top, hence the nomenclature Bevel up (BU) & bevel down (BD). However, now you have the blade bevel contributing to the attack angle, or cutting angle, or whatever you want to call it.

    So for example, if you take a 'standard' BD plane, it has a bed angle of 45*, and for BD planes with parallel blades, the cutting or attack angle is the same as the bed angle. It is typical to grind blades to around 25 degrees & hone a secondary bevel of about 30 degrees, which gives you a clearance angle of 15 degrees in a BD plane with a 45 degree bed angle. Now, if you flipped the blade & put it in a plane which had a bed angle of 15 degrees (which is quite a low angle), you have got the same clearance angle and the same attack angle. Yet most things being equal, you will have a different plane, which behaves quite differently from the standard angle job. Why? The answer is complex, and subject to much debate! My take is that it has much to do with the vector of the force on the blade and the blade retention system, but I've forgotten too much maths to attempt a 'proof' of my theorem. Just accept that the low angle blades will do certain jobs well, like planing end-grain, which introduces a very high level of pressure against the cutting edge compared with side-grain. However, it's still possible to plane end grain quite successfully with 'high angle' planes (think HNT Gordon planes), which is one of the reasons I think it has much to do with blade retention systems & the damping actions of the bed.

    You can also go in the opposite direction & raise the attack angle. This has the effect of increasing the force required to take off a shaving, but decreases the risk of the wood chipping out ahead of the cutting edge, which is why high-angle planes are preferred for planing some types of cranky-grained wood.

    Your other questions on lengths of plane & uses have been answered, I think....

    Cheers,
    Thanks all,

    Really importantly: Which should I get, a low angle or standard block/jack plane and why? (PS. considering carbatec- Veritas low angle vs standard block plane)
    Which is overall more versatile ( and why?)

    Just curiously...Why does a smoothing plane take off less than a jack plane in regards to how it is set up
    ?

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    ......Just curiously...Why does a smoothing plane take off less than a jack plane in regards to how it is set up...... ?
    This is the easier question to answer. A plane takes off as much as you want it to. You can take off as thick a shaving with a block plane as with a jointer. However, you usually set smoothers to take extremely fine shavings because (with a sharp blade!) that is likely to yield the best surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    ...Really importantly: Which should I get, a low angle or standard block/jack plane and why? (PS. considering carbatec- Veritas low angle vs standard block plane)
    Which is overall more versatile ( and why?)
    This question cannot be answered by anyone but yourself. You need to do some reading/talking to other competent woodworkers, preferably use some different planes, decide what it is you will be using your planes for, and make the decisions on what fits your needs best. Everyone will give you different advice based on his/her personal preferences & experience. For example, someone has advocated you buy a block plane. I certainly wouldn't make that an essential early purchase, myself. I would buy either a #5 size (a very versatile bit of kit, imo, and whether it be a BU or a BD type is your choice) or a # 4, before I bought an expensive block plane. I live very happily with a relatively cheap block plane - I use it a lot, but for what I use them for, the most basic model of block plane does the job very well. But these are my needs..

    Chers,
    IW

  8. #7
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    An interesting opinion,
    I must admit a jack is next on the list but is a little too expensive for the Xmas present range I was offered and will buy one myself in a few months.

    In regards to the answer a smoother will take off finer shavings, but a block can take off as much as a jack depending how it's set.. I asked earlier, why can you not use a jack as both a jack and a smoother with the blade set differently?

    I must admit I'll get the block this time, but am still not sure whether to get a standard or low angle. It sounds like standard will do everything you want it too but LA is better in end grain. I think the HA will still do end grain just not as well, so I'll give this a shot!!?

    Last question, , as I said I would love a jack down the track. Considering Lie Nielsen or Veritas. Will there be any big difference as Veritas only make a 5 1/4? Which is slightly longer and wider. Will this still be as versatile as a normal no 5 Jack?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    I asked earlier, why can you not use a jack as both a jack and a smoother with the blade set differently?
    Many people do just that. Most people start with just a jack, because you can do a reasonable job of jointing or smoothing with it, and then in time add a smoother and a jointer to their collection, depending on their needs and usage.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    I must admit a jack is next on the list but is a little too expensive for the Xmas present range I was offered and will buy one myself in a few months.

    ...as I said I would love a jack down the track. Considering Lie Nielsen or Veritas. Will there be any big difference as Veritas only make a 5 1/4? Which is slightly longer and wider. Will this still be as versatile as a normal no 5 Jack?
    A jack plane is normally for coarse work (though you can set one up as a smoother). So you should probably buy an old one, because if it's a bit rough it won't matter. Save your pennies for where it matters.

    The Veritas 5¼ is the same width (2") as the Lie-Nielsen No.5, but while Veritas BU planes really are great, Veritas BD planes don't get rave reviews. Have a look at Cliftons too (British racing green !! - it's got to be good )

    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    I must admit I'll get the block this time, but am still not sure whether to get a standard or low angle. It sounds like standard will do everything you want it too but LA is better in end grain. I think the HA will still do end grain just not as well, so I'll give this a shot!!?
    If it were me, I'd go for the low angle. My reasoning is: Block planes are bevel-up. With a bevel-up plane the bevel angle sets the EP (Effective Pitch = the angle the steel attacks the wood). So a low angle plane with a bed at 12° and iron honed at say 27° has an EP of 39° (vrs a std BD plane at 45°) - or for stubborn Aussie hardwoods, with the iron honed at 50° has an EP of 62°.

    The standard angle block plane has it's bed 8° higher (at 20°), so the lowest EP you can get is is higher than a standard BD plane. Not so good for end grain. The low angle block plane can do everything a standard angle block plane can do - and more.
    But it's worth having a spare iron so you're not always honing and rehoning the angles though..

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    ...In regards to the answer a smoother will take off finer shavings, but a block can take off as much as a jack depending how it's set.. I asked earlier, why can you not use a jack as both a jack and a smoother with the blade set differently?
    What Colin said.

    For about the first 20 years of my woodworking career, all I owned in planes was a #5 and a Stanley 110 block plane which I'd bought new with my Christmas money when I was 12. If you're not familiar with Stanley's numbering system, the 110 is as basic as a metal plane gets. I made a lot of things using those two planes & my other limited woodworking tools.

    A #5 is usually considered far too short for jointing, but with perseverance, it's amazing how straight you can get a board with a 14" sole...

    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    ... Last question, , as I said I would love a jack down the track. Considering Lie Nielsen or Veritas. Will there be any big difference as Veritas only make a 5 1/4? Which is slightly longer and wider. Will this still be as versatile as a normal no 5 Jack?
    The blurb in the LV catalogue is a bit confusing. Veritas's 5 1/4 is not longer or wider than a standard Bailey jack plane, it is longer & wider than the original Stanley 5 1/4. It is still considerably shorter than a 'standard' jack.

    It's been said many times on this forum, but I'll say it again. There are lots of old Stanleys & Records floating around that you can pick up at reasonable prices from all sorts of places. Most of these can be made to work well, many very well. Fettling an old plane can teach you valuable lessons and not put much of a dent in your pocket. Raw beginners are often encouraged to buy high quality (read high cost) tools because they will work right out of the box, so at least you have a yardstick by which to measure the performance. I was never in the financial position to follow that advice in my 'apprentice' days, and probably wouldn't have, being by nature both curious & stingy. But if you want to follow that suggestion, there is a less expensive alternative, & that is to buy a pre-fettled old plane from someone like Jim Davey, which go for around 1/2 to 2/3rds the price of Veritas & LN. IMO, you should buy at least one old plane and fiddle with it to learn what makes these things tick.

    At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say this: No two people I know have the same set of planes. We make different things, for sure, but it probably says as much about our different preferences as anything else. Someone who makes only small boxes could probably live happily with a single block plane (though most don't! ). Many beginners seem to think they have to have a 'full' set of plane, but really, they can't know what they need until they have used planes for a while. The wide range of planes available is to cater for individual tastes as much as real needs. Take just smoothers for an example - they come in a variety of widths & lengths & weights, bevel up or bevel down, with different blade angles, with bodies of wood or metal. The plane most often on my bench is an old Bailey #4, with a bog-standard 45* bed. It's not even a conscious choice, it just comes out because it does so many jobs well for me, but I didn't even own a #4 until I was more than 10 years into woodworking! Yet lots of people swear by the larger, heavier #4 1/2 & wouldn't touch a 4, while others swear by higher or lower-angled jobs, or laud wooden bodies over metal. Each has his/her reasons for their preference, and they are all valid. I make things from box-sized to large cabinets, & I use 3 sizes of bench plane that I've found suit me best, 7, 5 & 4, but those are simply my choices.

    The only sure way to find out what works best for you is to get stuck in with a plane or two and use them for making the things you want to make.

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    Hi all



    2. My understanding so far of planes is pretty basic: ( and basically follows the principle the longer the sole length the less stock removed?)

    Thanks all.
    P.S I only have a number 7 jointing plane at this stage as it is all I have needed but plan to treat myself to a jack or block plane over xmas. Any opinions on which? Will also start another thread on beefing up a Stanely no 7

    the amount removed is a matter of sequence. the first plane removes the most material. each subsequent plane removes less than the last.


    my first planes were a jack and a block plane. it worked well for me as a house carpenter for a bunch of years.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellofellow View Post
    Thanks all,

    Really importantly: Which should I get, a low angle or standard block/jack plane and why? (PS. considering carbatec- Veritas low angle vs standard block plane)
    Which is overall more versatile ( and why?)
    get the one you need the most, within your budget.

    budget is a real consideration. unless this is completely play money for you, you should be serious about allocating funds efficiently. you have a lot of tools to buy, it sounds like, not to mention wood and things like finishing supplies, and beer and bandaids. personally, I have gotten the most bang for the buck from vintage bailey pattern planes. for the cost ofa single plane from veritas or lie nielsen I have a full stable of bench planes. I did have to tune them all up, but that is a fun learning process.

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