Progressive pitch/rake handsaws

**ch!ppy** · 12th April 2012, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by IanW

Chippy, I guess the main reason is because I watched my father do it that way, and as you say, most of the sharpening info in books & on the net show it that way as well.

Given my limited sharpening experience, I'm very willing to listen & learn, so go for it.......

Cheers,

its certainly a common method, i have even seen people that would be called professional saw sharpeners doing it that way, at least they were full time sharpeners, but that method is limiting in the results it can achieve (obviously it doesn't effect a standard filed rip saw), in other words you can only end up with a CC saw that is general purpose in use (not specifically enhanced for hardwoods), pretty much just what a machine does, i think it also avails itself to not obtaining the sharpest teeth sometimes too, particularly when done by hand, at least its easier to not quite get the sharpest tooth filing that way.

filing toward the handle of the saw (with the handle of the file toward the toe of the saw) you cant end up with a sloping gullet in the right direction and in some cases you cant file the front of the tooth correctly from this direction, so now i am not surprised you find it quite difficult to obtain sloping gullets, if you file toward the toe or pointy end of the saw (with handle of file toward the handle of saw) then the gullet ends up in the right direction on the correct side of the tooth, your file is also filing the front of the tooth as a primary effect, not as a secondary effect to filing the back of the other tooth, the more slope you put on the file the stronger the back of the tooth becomes, and in exaggerated examples you do not file the back of the tooth at all which gives you a very strong tooth suited for hardwood.

so its not that your father showed you wrong, ppl have been doing it that way for at least a hundred years i suspect-(filing toward the toe is probably older though), its just limiting, but for many thats all they need, it mimics how the machine does it and indeed how some books have shown it. and works well as a general purpose saw for many things not least of which is pine and oregan and such, it will still cut jarrah, even quite well if freshly sharpened but a saw filed with slope is better suited, i can say with confidence after cutting some roofs made of jarrah (thanks god they dont use that anymore!) and of course many floors, both floor boards, joists and bearers among some other things

i have also seen it (sharpened toward saw handle) advised in some henry disston pamphlets but amusingly i have also seen him say (older books) the opposite in as much as it said the ''only correct way is toward the toe" (paraphrasing from memory).

the main (only one that occurs to me atm) advantage filing in the direction to the handle of saw has is it doesn't leave a burr on the front edge of the tooth, which is a labour saver for machines, and people when it comes to that (does put a burr on still though, just not on the front of the tooth). advantage to filing in the direction toward the toe is that its a little smoother filing experience and imo the burr is a good thing (think chisels and such, you want the burr to form) and then is jointed down with a oil or wet stone which actually leaves you with a more balanced saw for straight cuts and gives you a tooth that is a tad sharper (has more cutting surface at the tip), also lets you dip the handle of the file to obtain slope or sloping gullets, also if you do dip by accident then its only the back of the tooth that is adversely affected (missed a bit which doesnt matter).

as with all things, whatever works for an individual is fine with me, i am just trying to show some alternatives and reasons behind it, to whats become the common method

cheers
chippy

**pmcgee** · 12th April 2012, 04:53 PM

(Not to interrupt the flow of info but more great info from the past ...)
Bob Smalser ... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/s...nd-saws-27948/

Aussie 'made' saws ... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/a...d-saws-122166/

Which points to this treasure trove of free books: http://www.toolemera.com/Books%20%26...-sharpeni.html

**ch!ppy** · 12th April 2012, 06:02 PM

dont know what all the links say but is that a kind way saying i am wasting my time pmcgee

.. (or probably altogether wrong

-just my luck haha)

ok. i'm going back to work!

**pmcgee** · 12th April 2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

dont know what all the links say but is that a kind way saying i am wasting my time pmcgee

Good god - not in the slightest!

I have just now read what you wrote, and need and want to go back and read it over several times. Ditto with Ian's previous detailed post ... despite reading it through once I hadn't clicked that he was referring to 'bevel' and 'fleam' in a different way to what I had read up to that point. I only realised that

last night.

I had come across someone on ebay UK selling a S&J booklet and was considering buying it, then thought that a lot of that very old info is available online if you dig around - which is how I came across the two woodforum links, and I wanted to 'register' them 'officially' before I lost track of them into my bookmark graveyard.

So I posted my entry - noting only that there were some new posts up that I neded to read.
(You know the scene in Star Wars - original of course - where the heroes and Leia are in the garbage disposal/squashing pit? ... that's what my browser bookmarks look like

)

What you guys are writing is invaluable info to me and, I know, many others because it is from firsthand relevant experience. The old documents are interesting too because of their close timewise relationship to an era when the handsaw was seen as so much more an essential tool - but as you point out - they can be amusingly contradictory across the body of them, and even apparently from the same company over different editions/years

Even more to the point, I have come across and 'read' some of these old books before ... 1902 ... sharpening circular saws ... handsaws ... etc etc ... and read the extended outpourings of crazy ebay saw guy ... and read posts by Bob Smalser ... BUT ... I am going back to those things now after reading here and appreciating what they have to say on a ~~deeper~~ slightly less shallow level and consequently getting more out of all of it - which is learning-about-handtools-heaven for me.

So keep typing both of you ... and don't stop 'til you are told

Cheers,
Paul.

**pmcgee** · 12th April 2012, 07:22 PM

More disrupting idiotic questions ...

Would you see any point to putting a 'starting section' of crosscut teeth, say 10-15% of the toothline, with the rest filed as rip teeth on either
- a ripping saw at 26"/28" long, or
- a dovetail saw?

Any preference for straight- vs skew-back handsaws?

Any preference for 'ship-shape' vs 'full-bladed' saws?

Thanks,
Paul.

**IanW** · 12th April 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by pmcgee

...... Would you see any point to putting a 'starting section' of crosscut teeth, say 10-15% of the toothline, with the rest filed as rip teeth on either
- a ripping saw at 26"/28" long, or
- a dovetail saw?

Having tried both finer pitch & relaxed rake, I didn't find either worth the extra fuss. There was a difference, but no "eureka" moment. I suppose I'm pretty used to hand saws, and starting a cut is usually the least of my worries. Seeing the bleedin' lines (even with me new specs!) is a much biger challenge! I spent all afternoon cutting dovetails, as a matter of fact. I didn't have a single mis-start, but I think I now have a permanent squint!

I can understand that if you come to using hand saws later in life, you may find it a bit awkward at first, but really, it doesn't take all that long to learn, given a decent saw, appropriately sized to the job.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

....Any preference for straight- vs skew-back handsaws?

Henry Disston was a darned good saw maker, and he was an even better salesman. The skew back is supposed to save weight and have less metal to cause friction in the cut. Maybe it adds up over a day's sawing. (Maybe!). Someone checked the composition of several of his 'standard' & 'super' steels & found they were all identical, so he was not immune to over-hyping his wares.
I do like the look of the skew backs, though....

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Any preference for 'ship-shape' vs 'full-bladed' saws?

Not sure what you mean, Paul - I try to keep all my saws ship-shape!

If you mean 'canted' vs parallel blades on back saws, I seem to have developed a fondness for making canted backs on small saws, lately. This is a purely cosmetic thing, not functional, as far as I'm concerned. This is the saw I was using this arvo...

Cheers,

**ch!ppy** · 12th April 2012, 11:15 PM

Good god - not in the slightest!

What you guys are writing is invaluable info to me and, I know, many others because it is from firsthand relevant experience.

thanks, very kind of you to say, i'm glad if i can help somewhat, hate to think all these years i spent stuffing about were to no avail either..i also have had an enjoyable and insightful time reading Ians' comments..everybody can pick up useful bits from each other

Would you see any point to putting a 'starting section' of crosscut teeth, say 10-15% of the toothline, with the rest filed as rip teeth on either
- a ripping saw at 26"/28" long, or

in the spirit of how the thread was started (modifications to standard saws), then yes there are mods that are worth doing, but also as i have tried to point out in most cases if you cant or havnt yet developed the skills or technics for using a standard (rip) then you may not really appreciate or fully benefit from using a modified saw..patients is key...i can easily start almost any tpi inch rip you would care to hand me, even if i have to use it overhead or some weird angle, of course it can be troublesome somewhat in some situations..i'm not bragging, though it probably looks like that (there are better things to brag about i am sure, using a saw wouldnt be one of them to me, pretty low down the list of accomplishments of course), but my point is i can (and have) easily taught or shown others to effectively start and use coarse rip saws or CC in fairly short amount of time (which i am sure you or anyone can do), although i guess every now and again i would hear some curse or drama when occasionally someone has had some trouble..maybe i just think you have to pay some dues and struggle a bit at first LOL, but after that you will have more an idea of what exactly you need the saw to do that it isnt doing for you, in the timber you are using, in the situation you are using it in, it may just be you are using the wrong saw for the job..i definitely recommend against making mods to a perfectly good saw because it sounds cooler to have progressive pitch or any of the other mods, it may well be that a standard saw does the job perfectly well and any mods are detrimental in the timber or situation your using it in..having got that long winded speal out of the way and accepting that you want a mod i probably would not recommend (typical) CC teeth on a rip as the ideal mod to start, assuming a smoother start is the reason, some of the other mods are probably more suited...greater tpi on a rip is one, sloping gullets so you end up with a skewed chisel tooth is another, adding fleam/bevel to the tooth is another, which is of course making it a coarse CC with high rake (easy to add but not so easy to put back if you dont like it!)

- a dovetail saw?

DT saws nowadays are commonly 15-16 ppi, thats very easy to start, some are 18-19-20ppi ! stick with standard is my advice, although i am sure a tiny amount of mod will make a small difference..actually i have a 19ppi DT here that has fairly deep sloping gullets in a CC pattern but i havnt used it in yonks, not keen on the handle so i prefer to use others..i think i have mentioned already in a previous post that i may hot rod a few DT up but i dont expect it will make much of difference , certainly not ease of starting

Any preference for straight- vs skew-back handsaws?

purely aesthetics, some skew back saws are heavier than a straight back. when i was young i used to hate the old fashioned looking saws, S&J ect kinda dorky looking to me back then, even if they were a new saw but based on old shape..i often prefered some of the modern (at the time) panel saws that had a sleek great feel to me at the time, having said that i use to use many old saws out of necessity (thats what i had) and grew quite attached to them, over the years my tastes changed to skew backs or straight backs as the wind took me, more than the shape is the steel, some of the old saws are quite heavy (say disston no 7 or no 8's!) and some are so nice that the steel is comparative in dimension but very strong and very thin, making them lighter (say disston no. 12), other saws are lightweight but they feel fragile (just using disston as an example because ppl seem to know them)...main thing is, no matter the brand, pick it up, if the handle is good you can move on to other features of the saw, if you dont like the feel of handle put it down no matter what it is, after feel of handle, i feel if it hangs well, i have probably already sighted the blade, and i see if the blade sings (thats just me maybe but if it sings and has good tension i like it more, must be a musician at heart!) although i have some saws that dont sing all that nice but i still use them, disston no.8 sings better than a disston D8 that doesnt much, sounds like a de-barked dog!, the D8 still gets the job done though. dont discount all the other brands though, they are often better value for money and just as good or better, just make sure they feel nice in the hand

reminds me of when i used to go to the outback for a holiday each year, inevitably this old bloke would have some job he wanted doing, furniture, pergolas, additions and all sorts, i used to leave my tools home on purpose so i didnt have to do any work but almost always ended up having to use his crappy tools, some el cheapo disston saw (not sure the model, some straight back lightweight model) and even worse was some friggin disgusting hammer i detested , after a few years i ended up taking some of my tools with me because i knew there was no way out of it, couldnt stand his hammer and a few other tools, amazingly i got used to his crappy saw (which was held together with nut and bolts from his shed btw) after i sharpened it

Any preference for 'ship-shape' vs 'full-bladed' saws?

not sure what you mean there? are you refering to the tooth edge looking like a keel? if so then i do like a hand saw to have a breasted plate, but i can happily work all day with a straight tooth line blade if thats all i have, the shorter the blade the more straight the tooth line should be, a back saw should have straight tooth line of course...a canted (toe has less depth than heel, its the back that is canted) blade on a back saw can be nice though, i find them kinda fun and coolish

cheers
chippy

edit; took me so long to write i didnt notice Ianw reply already lol fairly similar answers

**pmcgee** · 13th April 2012, 01:11 AM

hmmm ... 'ship-shape' ... partly where I got the terminology from ...

Online Reference of Disston Saws -- D8 Model

Disston D8 1927 catalog

D8 'wide-blade' : http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page/d8cat1927.jpg
vs
D-8 Lightweight (Ship) Pattern:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d...at1927ltwt.jpg

Paul

**IanW** · 13th April 2012, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

...i can easily start almost any tpi inch rip you would care to hand me, even if i have to use it overhead or some weird angle, of course it can be troublesome somewhat in some situations..i'm not bragging, though it probably looks like that...........

Nah, Chips, it is an acquired skill & you have done the leg (or arm) work to get it! I used to watch my old man do jobs at impossible angles & wish I could do that. I'd like to see a young fella with his circ, saw trying to do what you could do fairly easily with a handsaw in a tight spot.

And I have had similar experiences using other people's tools, where even a simple job takes twice as long & ends up not very well. I don't mind using very basic tools, but why are they always so dull, & never a stone or file within cooee?!

Maybe it's just a generational thing, but we do seem to have similar views on a few things...

Avagooday,

**ch!ppy** · 13th April 2012, 01:01 PM

hehe, its off topic so sorry but i cant help it i have to say...

i think this old guy used to get great pleasure in watching me suffer with his old junky gear, it never seized to make him laugh when he would supply me with flat head screws to do a job, i reckon he did it on purpose, i would always complain and say something like, just because i am a carpenter doesnt mean i have to use the same friggin screws as Jesus Christ, flat head screws used to P me off no end, even though for many years they still supplied them for hinges and such..i used to complain and say what is it with these people dont they know its the 20th century, these things were around when Jesus walked the earth!

:

**jimbur** · 13th April 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by IanW

And I have had similar experiences using other people's tools, where even a simple job takes twice as long & ends up not very well. I don't mind using very basic tools, but why are they always so dull, & never a stone or file within cooee?!,

Ian, surely you didn't forget to pack the diamond film?

Cheers,
Jim

**pmcgee** · 17th April 2012, 12:55 AM

OK. Well first thanks so much to Chippy and IanW for all the discussion and information.

I've been doing my homework ... I've been slowly and painfully making a small shed - that started out as a pool pump enclosure - from jarrah roof timbers I have, so I've been using a few of my saws. (pics)

BTW AndrewR, your S&J rip backsaw has been working perfectly.

This wood is not the rock hard solid jarrah. It has a slightly lighter feel to it and is a bit stringy and cuts pretty easily ... no problem starting any cut. (Maybe it is Karri?)
So I can appreciate that although there is the potential freedom to thoroughly personalise a saw, possibly it isn't required in many circumstances.

Mainly I was asking about the 'starting section' to a saw from
- the fact that many saws seem to be shaped that way,
- testing a blunt 3pt saw

One of the next jobs will be to build a really nice sharpening horse. I've seen about 7 or 8 designs. I'll put the links together and post it if people are interested.

So ... more qns ...

1. Practical ... and I can't believe I forgot this up to now ...
What size file for what pitch saw please?

2. Theoretical ...
Some people go through many levels of grits to sharpen and then polish a plane blade or chisel. Even in flattening the base of a plane, people might do multiple levels. So ... what makes a saw different? I suppose there are course files (shaping) and finer ones (sharpening), but could there be any possible advantage in going beyond that?

Cheers,
Paul.

**IanW** · 17th April 2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by pmcgee

So ... more qns ...

1. Practical ... and I can't believe I forgot this up to now ...
What size file for what pitch saw please?

2. Theoretical ...
Some people go through many levels of grits to sharpen and then polish a plane blade or chisel. Even in flattening the base of a plane, people might do multiple levels. So ... what makes a saw different? I suppose there are course files (shaping) and finer ones (sharpening), but could there be any possible advantage in going beyond that?

Paul, the short answer to Q1 is, 'look here':
Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Triangular Files

I also have a longer answer. The reason you need different files for different size teeth has to do in large part with the corners. All triangular files (of this type) have 60 degree angles, but smaller files have 'sharper' corners, i.e. the edges meet in a line. As files get larger, the corners become more rounded. If you use a too-large file for fine teeth, it will cut a very rounded, shallow gullet, and produce dinky little teeth that have little strength & are hard to set.

For practical purposes, apart from the corner-sharpness business, the smallest file you can use is one that has half of each side in contact with metal when sitting in the gullet. If more than half is in contact, when you rotate the file for a fresh corner, you will be trying to cut with part of your file already worn. If you use too large a file, apart from the poor tooth conformation problem, you are 'wasting' part of the file that doesn't see any use. Keeping 20 different files on hand isn't practical for most of us, and you can cover the needs of your average saw collection satisfactorily with 3 or 4 different sizes of files. In general, a little oversize is prefererable to undesize because you will always be presenting fresh file to the metal when you rotate the file to use the next corner.

Note that the file sizes given on the LN chart are for "American pattern" sizes. LN Australia sells a brand of European files, and they don't conform to AP sizes. What I have found is that the corners on their smallest files are not really sharp enough for very fine teeth (18-20 tpi), but passable for 15 tpi & larger. A keen Forumite is working on getting us a supply of better files, but you will have to wait a little longer for details on this....

Q2.
I have been waiting for someone to start pushing special diamond or 'ceramic' files in three grits to hone saw teeth to perfection so saws cut without any human intervention, etc., etc.

However, your question is not unreasonable & deserves a serious answer. Briefly, using the 'correct' file will give you a perfectly satisfactory edge. Although the cutting edge of a saw tooth may not shave the fluff off a bee's whatsit, it is quite sufficient unto the task if done properly. Yet another reason for choosing the smallest file you can get away with is because the smaller the file, the finer the pitch of its teeth, and so the better surface it leaves. The single-cut files used for saw sharpening leave a surface that is perfectly servicable, particularly if you follow the advice of using a new file, or a fresh, unused corner of the file for a final, light stroke on each tooth to finish the job.

Cheers,

**Pops** · 17th April 2012, 10:06 AM

Hi Paul,

I would go with your guess, Karri. Dead give-a-way is the stringly look and easier workability compared to Jarrah.

Don't let it near the ground, you know white ants just leap for joy if they find it.

Cheers
Pops

**pmcgee** · 19th April 2012, 12:08 AM

Saw Maintenance - Online Reference of Disston Saws --

Something to keep in mind!

Sperm oil - more manly than camelia oil

(We are talking whales, right?

)

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