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  1. #16
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    One more suggested lance regarding the slight binding issue.
    You could lay the plate on a flat surface with just the teeth hanging over the edge and run a diamond plate stone (Dmc) over the edge just once each side.
    This may help with binding issue
    Ian and Paul may have more experience with this then me tho.

    Cheers Matt.

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  3. #17
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    Well done with the saw. Better than my attempt to cut teeth although the saw cuts reasonably well. Next time I will use that Mr Sellers method. I used the paper printout with the lines but it is hard not to have some wander with the file.
    Get a nice hardwood handle made and perhaps a brass back and there's your high end saw right there. As to the binding issue I think it will be gone when you get the teeth set.
    Regards
    John

  4. #18
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    Thanks all for your responses and suggestions. I wan't able to get much more done over the weekend as it was full of other commitments. None the less, I did manage to get some time on Saturday and jointed, the teeth, and had another go at sharpening. It was very enlightening as to which teeth were uneven. Interestingly it seemed that I didn't have a high tooth, rather a couple of low teeth, which would then make the next correct tooth relatively high. Must pay more attention to not over-filing some teeth. The second result was better, with a minor binding in a different area, but only slight.

    On Sunday I had ten minutes, so thought I should try again (good thing it's not a prised saw) but only managed to joint and sharpen several teeth. I'll do some more this afternoon. Also, I'm borrowing Adam's saw-set today, so will give it a crack.

    Some questions:

    1. Am I correct to assume that I should be filing with an even down pressure, not favouring the face or back sides, and rely on the back slope "pushing" the file into the face?

    2. Also, as to how much to file, I've been going down till I've just removed all the jointed facet on the top of the tooth. Is that correct? I've been trying to be extra careful as the file is a little large, and I think fairly aggressive.

    3. Can someone provide a link to the correct file I should be using (preferably from an online retailer)? I've tried looking again today, but end up running around in circles as I can't seem to find what I should be buying, so would really appreciate some help. For the record, I'm working to 12-13 ppi.

    My wife is happy that I'm enjoying myself, but does think I'm a little mad. I asked my kids if they wanted to have a go, and they just chuckled, thanked me for the offer then declined.

    Ta,
    Lance

  5. #19
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    This thread has been fantastic. I have an old bunningsesque saw that I was thinking about grinding off the teeth. I kind of wanted to wait for another crosscut saw before I do it (I have REALLY limited tools). Well that may have happened on the weekend. Father in law cleaned out a portion of his shed. Among other things I got 3 old distons. The blades are rusted to hell, the handles are not great, some parts missing....but they will suit the purpose of me learning.

    One of them was around the size of the current crosscut with some very very worn teeth. So that will be my first attempt. It will take me a few weeks to clear out the rust, get together the pieces I need, but after reading through here and checking out the Paul Sellars video...pretty keen to give it a bash. Thanks for the info guys.

  6. #20
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    Slothman, just do it. This was my only saw too. There's nothing quite as motivating as "well now I have nothing that will work, so I had better fix it". Like I said following the first "toothing", having done it, it's no-where near as scary as I thought it would be.

    The only other preparation I would suggest, is if you can find an old blackboard, drag your nails down it repeatedly in an effort to desensitise your nerves. There's nothing to raise goose-bumps and induce cold shivers over your entire body like the sound and feel of cutting and filing the plate.

    Lance

  7. #21
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    When the subject of saw restoration and sharpening rears it's head I usually find myself referring interested persons to Andy Lovelock's video on the subject. He used to be a contributor on this Forum, but regrettably had to rationalise him time. The video is long but covers many aspects of saw terminology and takes the viewer through not only a restoration process but also the actual jointing, shaping, setting and sharpening of , from memory. three different styles of saw including both crosscut and rip teeth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mnxwc

    His style is easy to listen to and while not everything will be agreed upon by the aficionados (aficionados all have their different viewpoints, which is what makes the topic one of continual interest), it is possibly the most comprehensive video of all aspects at one hit.

    I probably should have posted this at the start rather than at this point.

    Sorry.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #22
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    Sorry, Lance, was out of town over the weekend. My answers to your Qs would be:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post

    1. Am I correct to assume that I should be filing with an even down pressure, not favouring the face or back sides, and rely on the back slope "pushing" the file into the face?

    <Yes, if your teeth all all at the correct rake angles. You want to cut an even amount from each face to maintain the leading & trailing angles. The exception is when you have a larger flat on the top of one tooth after jointing. You need to determine which gullet is shallow & also which tooth is too wide at the base, then you 'lean' on the side with the wide tooth whilst maintaining enough downward pressure to deepen the gullet. It becomes second-nature after a bit>

    2. Also, as to how much to file, I've been going down till I've just removed all the jointed facet on the top of the tooth. Is that correct? I've been trying to be extra careful as the file is a little large, and I think fairly aggressive.

    <That's what I do. At that pont, all teeth should be pretty much the same size & the tips in a straight line. At that point, I set it, then go over it once more with a one-two stroke (one firm, one very light) to clean off any burring aused by the saw-set, & put the final sharp edge on each tooth.>

    3. Can someone provide a link to the correct file I should be using (preferably from an online retailer)? I've tried looking again today, but end up running around in circles as I can't seem to find what I should be buying, so would really appreciate some help. For the record, I'm working to 12-13 ppi.

    <There are lots of tables on the web, I always direct people to this one. Lie Nielsen also have a table on their website. Some recommend 4 inch double extra slim for 12 tpi, but you'd get away with a 4" EST quite ok, imo.>

    My wife is happy that I'm enjoying myself, but does think I'm a little mad.......

    <You're in good company here, but we're all pretty harmless.. >

    Cheers,
    IW

  9. #23
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    No need to apologise Ian, you've been more than generous with your time and advice.

    Well the good news is that I think I cracked it this evening. I gave the saw a good deep jointing and took a looooong time filing every tooth very carefully, putting a little pressure on the required edge in an attempt to "move" the uneven teeth so as to equalise the pitch. I think I was largely successful too. Yay to me!

    One point of note that really surprised me. After the initial sharpening, everything looked nice and even, the spacing and gullet depth. A huge improvement. I was a little flummoxed then to note that it wasn't cutting as well as what I would have thought it should. In a moment of inspiration I got my magnifying loupe (actually a prism from an old pair of binoculars) and had a look at the teeth. I was surprised to note that I hadn't actually sharpened all the way to the end, and there were still flat spots on the teeth. And I was even wearing my glasses this evening! So back I went, very carefully, filing ten or so teeth, and checking them under magnification before moving on to the next set. This took a long time, but afterwards I knew that they were sharp!

    20190513_202620.jpg 20190513_202608.jpg

    I had popped over to Adam's house earlier this afternoon and borrowed his saw-set, so now was time to set the teeth. I set the gauge to the minimum setting, and ran up and down the saw setting one way and then the other. I had read a note from a chap who marked every second tooth with a marker. I thought pffft, I will just go at it do-one, skip-one, do-one, skip-one etc. After nearly setting the wrong tooth within the first five or so teeth, I put the saw-set down and marked every tooth with a marker. The lesson? I'm still a beginner, don't try taking short cuts just yet.

    20190513_202253.jpg 20190513_213500.jpg

    After the tooth setting, I ran my 1200 diamond plate lightly over each side a couple of times to even everything out as Matt told me to do.

    20190513_213150.jpg

    I gave it a VERY LIGHT joint, and went over each tooth again with the file to put the finishing edge on.

    I would like to thing you're now in suspense wondering how it worked, but I gave away the punch line in the second sentence of this post, so meh.
    I posted in another topic how when I first got a plane set up properly, taking shavings is addictive. I would never have thought I'd feel the same way about using a hand saw, but I do! This thing cuts as though it were its single purpose in life. I have read the oft posed advice of "let the weight of the saw do the cutting", and never really understood. I now do. What a pleasure to just pump your arm back and forth, whilst the saw just drops down the wood. I grabbed everything I could find, from strips of Pine to 1" Tas Oak and spotted gum boards. In addition to cutting well, it tracks beautifully straight too.

    20190513_202153.jpg

    Oh, and I should conclude with the initial intent that started this whole thread. My tooth width is now 0.95 mm, against my blade width of 0.75 mm. So after of this whole malarkey, I did indeed succeed in reducing the set on my tenon saw!

    20190513_213317.jpg 20190513_213332.jpg

    Again, thank you so much to all who have offered advice and encouragement along the way. I'm really chuffed to have started the journey to learning a new skill. Next step, the handle.

    Lance

  10. #24
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    Lance

    I note that you started this thread on 9 May. You have reached saw sharpening nirvana in about six days: Remarkable! Congratulations.

    I think you already know the sentiment I alluded to with the handle. Once you have a saw working so well it just seems natural that you have a handle to compliment it. If you have a really nice piece of timber from which to make the handle I suggest that you put it to one side for the moment and find a piece of scrap pine and experiment with that first. The elements that bring most of us undone are cutting the slot for the blade and drilling the holes for the saw screws. So, after cutting out the basic shape, these are the two task to do first. If they go wrong, you have not wasted time with all the finishing and refinements to no avail.

    This is a thread that you may have seen already and although it is slightly different in approach to your situation there may be some information you can extract from it.

    Advice on identifying and restoring Disston saw

    One thing you will probably pick up on is the speed at which the addiction can grab you. Saws may well be the "ice" of the hand hand tool world replicating both the euphoria and the speed of addiction.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    I note that you started this thread on 9 May. You have reached saw sharpening nirvana in about six days: Remarkable! Congratulations.
    Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd like to not take two hours to touch up a saw, and I'd like to not snap my file when extracting it from the rake angle gauge/helper piece of wood . Let's settle on "well on the road to saw sharpening nirvana".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Once you have a saw working so well it just seems natural that you have a handle to compliment it. If you have a really nice piece of timber from which to make the handle I suggest that you put it to one side for the moment and find a piece of scrap pine and experiment with that first. The elements that bring most of us undone are cutting the slot for the blade and drilling the holes for the saw screws. So, after cutting out the basic shape, these are the two task to do first. If they go wrong, you have not wasted time with all the finishing and refinements to no avail.
    That's really good advice, both on the test piece as well as the order in which to do things. Though at this rate, I'll have a workshop full of test pieces as I'm currently building a text box with bellied sides out of Tas Oak to find all the pitfalls before making a pair of them out of Tas Blackwood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Saws may well be the "ice" of the hand hand tool world replicating both the euphoria and the speed of addiction.
    Yes, like I said, I really didn't expect to enjoy the process so much. It was more a means to an end and learning a new skill. The only negative is having to work very hard to get rid of all the metal filings over the bench and marking tools before doing something with wood.

    Lance

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post
    ...... After nearly setting the wrong tooth within the first five or so teeth, I put the saw-set down and marked every tooth with a marker. The lesson? I'm still a beginner, don't try taking short cuts just yet.
    Yep, I still have to mark very fine teeth - I only have to lose concentration for a split second & I'll skip two, or set the next tooth. Part of the problem is the the set mechanism is obscuring half of what you're looking at.

    A tip for the next time you have to sort out a bunch of 'cows & calves': It's easy to end up with two or three bevel angles on the teeth when you are pushing the file this way or that to fix over-sized teeth. By inking them all with a felt pen before the final going over, you'll pick these up more easily (in the case you showed above, there would've been ink remaining on the rounded part behind the tops). After a few saws, you won't need to do that, but it helped me when I started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post
    ...... This thing cuts as though it were its single purpose in life.....
    Umm, can't think of what else to do with a saw??.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post
    ...... I'm really chuffed to have started the journey to learning a new skill. Next step, the handle....
    Well, good on yer - I reckon you've earned more than a passing grade for the tooth-making, & 11 out of 10 for persistence!

    The handle, yes, a bit of crowning glory. You live in the state with a couple of ideal woods for the job, both Blackwood & Myrtle can make excellent handle material. Tiger Myrtle is gorgeous stuff, though I found it needed very careful finishing: Tiger Myrtle handle.jpg

    If you go for figured stuff, choose a piece with a fine repeat-pattern, so it shows well on the small areas of a handle, but most importantly, make sure that the grain isn't too wild so you end up with short-grain in the parts that need to be strong - nothing quite as disheartening as having a beautiful new handle break on the first cut.

    The existing bolt-holes in the plate are pretty useless for a traditional wooden handle - you might be able to use the top one, but I've always cut them both off & re-shaped the back. With a bit of care & imagination, you can preserve most of the original length: Early saw.jpg

    It's pretty easy to drill new holes with a suitable carbide-tipped drill, and you'll find it simpler to fit a 'new' blade to a handle to do it that way. I think I've got a couple of spare saw bolts kicking about, somewhere, so if you PM me with a postal address I'll donate them to the cause. These are the 'old fashioned' split-nut types, not the later barrel-nut type, but the latter need a 3-step hole, & the split-nut version is easier to fit.

    Cheers,
    IW

  13. #27
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    Well I got some time in the workshop this afternoon, so had a crack at making a practice handle. I've got some 30 mm Tas Oak, so planned that down to 25 mm or so and cut out a Tyzack handle from the TGIAG template.



    All went relatively well, including my cut for the saw plate.



    The bit I messed up was trying to increase the cut for the spine. How on earth do you manage that? Bearing in mind I don't have a chisel narrow enough, I'd appreciate some guidance on that. I've provided a photo of my unfortunate attempt.



    And because I had nothing else planned for this evening, I decided to sand it up to 240. Now I don't want to throw it away, so will have to tuck it away as a spare



    A generous member has donated some pear wood for the handle, so am eagerly anticipating its arrival so that I can create the final version, along with Ian's nuts. Ooh the excitement.

    Perhaps in the interim I'll buff up the blade and spine. I have some actual woodworking to do though, so will have to slot it in whilst I'm waiting for glue to dry!

    Lance

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post





    The bit I messed up was trying to increase the cut for the spine. How on earth do you manage that? Bearing in mind I don't have a chisel narrow enough, I'd appreciate some guidance on that. I've provided a photo of my unfortunate attempt.



    And because I had nothing else planned for this evening, I decided to sand it up to 240. Now I don't want to throw it away, so will have to tuck it away as a spare



    A generous member has donated some pear wood for the handle, so am eagerly anticipating its arrival so that I can create the final version, along with Ian's nuts. Ooh the excitement.

    Perhaps in the interim I'll buff up the blade and spine. I have some actual woodworking to do though, so will have to slot it in whilst I'm waiting for glue to dry!

    Lance
    Lance

    Even as a practice piece that handle looks so much better. You can probably already envisage how the finished handle in Pear might look.

    I can imagine the back will be a problem for you as the original spine is probably so narrow. Normally I make a saw cut either side of the proposed trench but slightly narrower than the back to allow the gap to be pared down with a chisel. The saw cut cannot get right in so that is done with a chisel. Cake has to be taken not to split the timber out when chiseling. Steady as you go is the order of the day. It sounds as though you don't have a chisel narrow enough so you may have to improvise. I am trying to think of alternatives as I type. Fortunately most of the trench for the spine is covered so only the top edges and the front need to be neat.

    I would do one of two things. Firstly, buy a single cheap chisel as close to the trench width as possible (probably 1/4" or 6mm) and then grind it down to suit the width needed. This is dependant of course on having a bench grinder or an angle grinder. Keep dipping it in water to keep it cool and avoid drawing the temper. The second possibility, which also needs a bench grinder or angle grinder is to do something similar with a suitable size screw driver. Still thinking: A Dremel type tool might have something int the kit of parts you could use to scoop out the trench: A simple drill, preferably armed with a brad point bit, to avoid wandering off track, could also work well. Drill a number of holes and open up with a normal size chisel along the length of the cut. Still be wary of damaging through splitting.

    I have some narrow chisels bothbought and hand made from files, but that is a lot of fussing for what will probably be a one off project. For your next one you will likely go to a brass back, which very possibly will be thicker.

    This may give you some ideas at least and you might come up with something completely different.

    Regards
    Paul

    Edit: Looking at your pix again I think you made the trench a little too deep for the spine. The spine should sit on the bottom of the trench. It also looks as though you did do some "excavation by drilling. That was okay and you can do it from the front or the top. Cleaning out the corner is the difficult part without a suitable chisel.
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    . ..... buy a single cheap chisel as close to the trench width as possible (probably 1/4" or 6mm) and then grind it down to suit the width needed.....
    Better still, buy a decent 1/8" chisel if you don't have one - they are handy tools to have, and you'll find plenty of uses for it apart from making trenches for saw spines. If the spine on that blade is like the ones I've removed in the past, it won't even be 3/16" thick, and there probably isn't any regular chisel size that matches, so sawing or paring an undersized trench will be your only option, methinks.

    I would do pretty much what Paul suggested. Drilling in from the front with a drill the same size as the spine width forms a nice clean bottom for the trench. I chop a vee down at the back, which then allows me to saw the sides down all the way, or most of the way. If all goes to plan, the amount of chiselling and paring is minimal (which is a good thing if you are working with woods like She-oak & Bull-oak!).

    I'm impressed by that handle for a first attempt, even a lamb's tongue! I'd made a good dozen handles or more before I added that flourish.

    You really are on fire, me lad, I haven't got to the PO with your bolts yet, I was thinking "plenty of time, it will take 'im a coupla weeks to make a handle...". Coupla hours seems more like it. Anyway, probably a good thing I haven't sent them yet, I was going to send two, but the size of the saw & those generous cheeks deserve 3 bolts, I think.

    You are going to need a way of drilling a couple of flat-bottomed 1/2" counter-sinks to take the heads & nuts - the best bet is a Forstner bit, but people get by with spade bits and brad-points and a bit of care.

    I'll get my butt into gear & get your bolts off today or Monday.....
    Cheers,
    IW

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    I can imagine the back will be a problem for you as the original spine is probably so narrow. Normally I make a saw cut either side of the proposed trench but slightly narrower than the back to allow the gap to be pared down with a chisel. The saw cut cannot get right in so that is done with a chisel.

    ...

    Edit: Looking at your pix again I think you made the trench a little too deep for the spine. The spine should sit on the bottom of the trench. It also looks as though you did do some "excavation by drilling. That was okay and you can do it from the front or the top. Cleaning out the corner is the difficult part without a suitable chisel.
    You are indeed correct. The spine is only about 4.5 mm thick. This was also compounded by an error of incorrect ordering. I cut the plate slot first, which made it nigh on impossible (for me) to saw cut the spine sides without always slipping into the plate cut. I then tried a chisel on edge and when that failed to produce a nice result, had a crack at a 4 mm straight cut bit in the router, which just chewed it all up. What started out as an quandary quickly acquired all the hallmarks of a Shakespearean tragedy. Good thing I was advised to make a test piece!

    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    You are going to need a way of drilling a couple of flat-bottomed 1/2" counter-sinks to take the heads & nuts - the best bet is a Forstner bit, but people get by with spade bits and brad-points and a bit of care.
    Quite the coincidence, as I was only researching forstner bits yesterday as I'm currently restricted to spade bits and hole saws, which are often a poor substitute when you need a forstner. And no need to rush on my account Ian. I can wait.

    Lance

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