Thread: Roman Workbench

Originally Posted by rob streeper

..... Back to the Roman style workbench - why? The form doesn't seem to have survived as all of our modern workbenches are taller, lack the multitude of legs and have tops made of several pieces. The only surviving feature seems to be the dog holes.

Yep, I immediately asked myself the same question, Rob.

I guess one answer is that Christopher is curious about the evolution of woodworking, and likes to play with old tools & gear. He also has to find subjects to write about.

A bench like that could be handy for some jobs, but for all-round convenience & my ageing back, I think I'lll stick with the 'modern' style.

These guys might have appreciated something similar, except they would have to carry it to the next village for their next job, so maybe their simple solution is more practical:
Planing planks red.jpg

PS: They didn't waste much time, I came back past the 'jobsite' later in the day & they had finished the pile!

Also it is worth remembering that the average height of a Roman was probably between 5'2" and 5'6", so these benches were relatively higher off the ground than for a 6'+ modern woodworker. Another point is that I suspect that Romans (and other earlier woodworkers) tended to use axes and adzes and similar more than saws, chisels and planes - axe and adze heads are easier to make and more robust than saw plares, plane irons and chisel blades. I suspect that knee high is about the right height for swinging an axe or adze onto a riven plank (I haven't tried this). Knee high is also good for a saw horse, so this kind of bench could fulfill this function as well. The other use of the bench was to mortice and sitting on the piece to hold it still is often quite a good position to cut out mortices with a chisel and mallet - I often use my saw horse as morticing bench if the mortice is large.

Ian

I don't think those two woodworkers (planers?) are flattening Ironbark as with it's propensity for splinters I think they would be very sorry indeed adopting that pose.

Jeremy

I think much of your reasoning is sound as to the use, but I think it would be too high for adze work. The full size adze is used with the workpiece on the ground. Possibly the one handed hammer size adze could be used on that bench.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

....Jeremy.....I think much of your reasoning is sound as to the use, but I think it would be too high for adze work. The full size adze is used with the workpiece on the ground. Possibly the one handed hammer size adze could be used on that bench....

True about a two-handed adze, Paul, but I think Jeremy is certainly thinking in the right direction. There's no doubt the bench was useful to Roman woodies, or they wouldn't have gone to the bother of making them, and a low bench would certainly be more appropriate to hatchets and hand-adzes. Once the demand for furniture made from pieces that needed to be fine-tuned with handplanes picked up (somewhere around the 16th C), I suspect benches grew up real fast.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Back to the Roman style workbench - why?
The form doesn't seem to have survived as all of our modern workbenches are taller, lack the multitude of legs and have tops made of several pieces.
The only surviving feature seems to be the dog holes.

this discussion really needs to reference another Lost Art Press work Woodworking in Estonia.
Knee high benches similar to Chris's "Roman bench" survived in Estonia (and probably other areas of Eastern Europe) through to the 1950s. Which is still living memory for many.

I've only glanced through Woodworking in Estonia, but in Estonia, sitting while working was common practice. particularly when morticing.

Originally Posted by ian

........ through to the 1950s. Which is still living memory for many......

Yeah, sort-of, Ian. The memories are not quite as sharp as they uster be, though....

Originally Posted by ian

........ but in Estonia, sitting while working was common practice....

'Tis in Pullenvale, too! There are lots of small jobs, like shaping saw handles, for e.g., that are comfy to sit down to. I don't sit on the bench, given that it's 850mm high, but a stool does the trick (& tucks under the tail vise end very neatly when not needed).

Bench heights seem to be a subject for perpetual discussion. They've been up & down a bit in my woodworking lifetime - up through the 60s & 70s when power tools looked like taking over the world, but went down again (or remained down for those who stuck with the potato-powered variety), with the hand-tool 'revival'. A few adjustable-height benches have been touted, too, and they looked tempting to me at first blush, but for various reasons I decided they were not a practical proposition for me. However, there are many jobs that involve holding small parts, that I need to have my looking-gear close to, and that can mean a sore back when working at my regular bench. My solution was to squeeze in a second, smaller bench that is a bit higher than my main bench - a luxury not available if you have space restrictions. Like Jeremy, I occasionally use my saw-horses as a low bench, but the vast majority of the work I do is far more conveniently done at the 'high' benches.

I wouldn't think that being able to sit on the low bench is its main feature, though it is undoubtedly a very handy advantage at times. Whatever, I'm sure they evolved to suit particular work methods, which are not broadly practiced today. The point I was making is that a bench should suit both ends and means. When I read some of the stuff about the 'Roman' bench, it seemed like folks were rushing to make one for no other reason than the 'gotta have one of those' syndrome. Making & using old tools can teach you a lot about them and the times they served, & I'm all for exploration of hand-tool techniques, and digging up the past for curiosity's sake. So I'm not dismissing the Roman bench as useless, just not appropriate to the tools & techniques I, (& probably the majority of woodworkers) now use.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

When I read some of the stuff about the 'Roman' bench, it seemed like folks were rushing to make one for no other reason than the 'gotta have one of those' syndrome. Making & using old tools can teach you a lot about them and the times they served, & I'm all for exploration of hand-tool techniques, and digging up the past for curiosity's sake. So I'm not dismissing the Roman bench as useless, just not appropriate to the tools & techniques I, (& probably the majority of woodworkers) now use.....

Cheers,

I agree, Ian. I was just raising the other side of the same point - that the Roman bench was likely very good for the way Roman woodworkers went about their jobs, which IMHO is what a bench should be.

It's like shavehorses. There was a recent Popular Woodworking email that came into my inbox telling me that I needed a shavehorse for all sorts of reasons, even if I don't make chairs, and spruiking a DVD for USD 23 on the subject. One part of me is tempted, but I can't really see myself using a shavehorse all that often (or at least often enough to make available any of the scarce spare space in the workshop to house it). What I need to work out is a demountable shavehorse that will attach to my sawbench and that will fold down for storage......

Originally Posted by Peter57

Peter,

Interesting that there was a link between lead paint and lead ingestion by drinking the run-off water. The white lead pigment (the nasty stuff in lead paints) is pretty much insoluble in water, but from what I can read white lead pigments are made by passing carbon dioxide through lead acetate (AKA lead sugar!).
Useless fact. You can trace the increase of level lead in the Arctic permafrost back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Lead in the Antarctic is only an early 20th century phenomenon and correlates with the rise of teh use of tetraethyl lead in motor vehicle fuels.

Even more useless fact.
The lab I worked before I retired was able to find clearly elevated lead levels in Antarctic ice that corresponded with the rise and fall of Greek and Roman Civilisations. Even more convincing is that the lead isotope patterns in the ice match the changing sources of lead being mined by the Romans over their lengthy civilisations. One of my PhD students was involved in research that showed how lead isotopes in modern Antarctic ice closely match the start and extent of mining and smelting in Australia. We had a special Teflon/acrylic/stainless lathe made to hold the ice cores so they could be decontaminated of drilling fluid. The lathe was decommissioned a few years back and I scored some of the pieces and last year made a TS blade guard from a piece of the acrylic.

Back to the OP.
Maybe the Roman bench marks a midway point from when wood was originally worked on the floor/ground to where wood is worked at standing height.

Originally Posted by BobL

Back to the OP.
Maybe the Roman bench marks a midway point from when wood was originally worked on the floor/ground to where wood is worked at standing height.

I think that Chris S makes the point that the "Roman" bench hung around for far longer than might be expected for a mid-point in bench development.
If I recall him correctly from some of his blog posts. The roman bench may have started with the Egyptians and continued in western Europe through to the 1600s and in parts of eastern Europe well into the 20th century.

floor height "benches" persist to this day in the Japanese WW tradition.

I would not be too surprised if higher benches evolved in concert with the development of planes incorporating horns and totes as places to locate your hands.

Originally Posted by ian

.....I would not be too surprised if higher benches evolved in concert with the development of planes incorporating horns and totes as places to locate your hands...

Ian, totes go back a very long way, too. There are Roman era planes that have totes, so would they have used those on the low benches, or did they make 'as needed' planing benches from a plank with a stop, leaned against something convenient, as they do in Japan & other parts?

I wish someone would hurry up & make a workable Tardis so we can go back and find the answers to so many questions....

Cheers,

Ian

Are you chasing down a Tardis just for the time travel or the extra space?

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

.. Are you chasing down a Tardis just for the time travel or the extra space?

Both, of course, Paul!

Bench wise - I think it makes more sense in the context of workers doing most of their work on the job site rather than in a shop.

These guys built cabinetry and furniture on site. And you didn't want to leave your junk onsite unless you slept with it there....

For that sort of duty - you need a sturdy but portable bench...

On the lead poisoning... Chronic high level exposure doesn't make you crazy - it makes you real slow. The classic symptom of chronic long term high exposure is an unresponsive slack jawed manner where you take forever to process... Lead poisoning is also very painful... At moderate levels - you feel like you have a cold you can't shake... Higher levels are like the flu that you can't shake - painful everything, tired... just like the flu but it doesn't end....

One possibility not yet explored here is the length of a Roman woodworkers' arms. Longer arms would obviously dictate a shorter bench. An element of the Roman army's success was their short sword. Combined with their longer arms it was a formidable weapon in battle. Hence regular short arm inspections to keep the ranks uniform. Its no doubt the origin of why it was called an "army" and why they bore arms and went about armed. There are many ancient texts that talk of the long arm of Roman law in these times as well.
Hope this helps
Doggie