Thread: Sawing extremely basic(ly)

I'm no expert with a backsaw. I'm no expert with a handsaw either but I have more experience with them.

These picture are from a month ago. I was sizing two boards to fill a drawer-void until I could get it together enough to make an actual drawer I wanted the base pretty strong so I could put a *lot* of files onto it. It is a meranti-ish sort of wood from something I picked up and deconstructed.

I assume I marked with a cutting guage ... I can't remember now ... and used a 5pt ripsaw to cut alongside (hopefully *just* in) the line. The length of the sawblade helped a lot to keep the cutting accurate ... cutting further and further back along the line before cutting too much of it all the way through. In fact you can see that the cut is least accurate in the middle where the notch was out of the board, because at some stage the front half dropped away and there was then less guidance for the saw for a while.

saw-drawer 001.jpg saw-drawer 002.jpg saw-drawer 003.jpg

saw-drawer 005.jpg saw-drawer 006.jpg saw-drawer 008.jpg

The second piece didn't have a notch, and was cut the same way ...

saw-drawer 011.jpg

I went out tonight and found the offcut. I had planed one side before cutting, but the cut side isn't all that different.

This is the sawn side - flash and no flash - and the planed side, which reflects the flash instead of looking matte.

ripping 005.jpg ripping 010.jpg ripping 011.jpg ripping 013.jpg

I was surprised there weren't more saw marks ... the saw was freshly sharp 'though ... it came to me like that from a seller/machine-sharpener in the US (5pt, rake=0 degrees). It has enough set to cut happily through 2" jarrah, so it isn't what I would expect it to look like.

After someone's ex-pergola demanded collection a few weeks ago, I ended up going back to something I think I will be puzzling over for some time ... when and how can a ripsaw be used for crosscutting?

This is a of broken jarrah beam that I was shortening. I crosscut it with two professionally hand-sharpened saws from the US ... a 10 point crosscut saw and a 6-1/2 point ripsaw. They both worked perfectly ... and yet other ripsaws caught and juddered or just didn't run perfectly smoothly.

I don't know if this will come across in the photo but the surfaces left are very smooth - in fact the crosscut one is worse because obviously 10 points is a bit low for this thickness and my technique or concentration wasn't as good as it should have been.
(The crosscut surface is the rear one)

Simonds x2 002.jpg Simonds x2 003.jpg


I want to cut be able to cut something quickly enough that it is a no-brainer to grab a saw ... and possibly I'm just wanting for a 5 point crosscut saw. I will set one up and get trying that when I can, but there's so much else to do

For those who think the whole question is madder than usual, my thinking is along these lines ...
- First I am sure I have read that European tradition was in the direction of ripsaws only.
- Ripsaws (handsaws) are more common - and probably cheaper
- They come in wider tooth pitches
- and it should be much easier to get a beginner to file a ripsaw, and get a better result sooner.

Top job mate! You've crossed over a line ( no pun ) and you're never coming back!

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

... and you're never coming back!

So many people wish that were true ... family, 'friends', ...
_ _ _ _

Lastly - a little while back, when I needed to not see people for a little while - I set up some wood, marked off 8mm from the edge and practised ripping along the marked line over and over. I started with 12" x 1" cypress pine, then got a jarrah block 12" x 2-1/2" that was a bit more mixed grain. The clamping method was a bit primitive

I started with three professionally sharpened saws for a 'gold standard' (5pt, 5-1/2pt, 6-1/2pt) and ended up trying another six sharp ones as well.

ripping 002.jpg ripping 003.jpg ripping 017.jpg

I didn't write down any notes then, so I've lost some of the things that were occurring to me.

One thing in particular that was striking was that - in both pieces - some of the saws would move completely through the timber from point to handle, but some would come to a halt at about 80% of the stroke.

I don't know if this because friction builds up, or sawdust isn't being cleared from the kerf, or an uneven-ness in the toothline, or operator error. Some of the factors that might come into this are ...

- set vs blade thickness
- tooth pitch and rake
- hang angle of the handle
- angle of saw to the work
- breasting of the sawblade

I remember I was thinking in particular about the breasting idea. It seemed like it might be possible that the breasted saws were more troublesome than the straight toothlines. Perhaps a breasted saw is meant to be used in a particular fashion, or perhaps they aren't best in a thicker wood. The shape of large crosscut saws might argue against that idea however.

Thinking about a breasted saw in exaggeration as a semi-circle, then you can see that if the whole saw is moved back and forth in a piston-like manner then the effective rake of a zero-rake toothline starts out leaning more forward towards the toe; vertical in the middle; and leaning back towards the heel. I don't know if that could come into it ... it's just something sloshing around in my head.

Cheers,
Paul

I was experimenting on some hardwood ... it is yellowish ... marri? blackbutt? ... on the weekend.
But it was all coming out pretty smooth.
During the week I was thinking ... "I remember sawing long ago ... raggedy-looking mess ... how did that happen?"
... it was only a passing thought, but I rediscovered the mess today.

I was waiting for an invoicing run, so ... let's try some softwood.

I picked up this ... 2"x2" pine ... and tried some ripsaws crosscutting ... cutting at the normal 45-ish degrees.

Ah-hah. Awful. Excellent.

rip xcut 001.jpg rip xcut 004.jpg

A 10pt crosscut saw cut quite well at 45-ish degrees ... and better using it like a mitre-saw (ie flat across).
This is the cut butterflied open.

rip xcut 005.jpg rip xcut 011.jpg

Flipping those pieces over, we see the previous 45 degree mess on the left, with a 6-1/2pt ripsaw sharpened by the same US guy cutting flat across on the right.

rip xcut 007.jpg rip xcut 008.jpg rip xcut 009.jpg

That seemed promising, so ... onto some Cyprus pine (I think) that was a tree 9-12 months ago.
I had cut and planed this bit for fun, turned out at 7" x 1"

rip xcut 012.jpg rip xcut 013.jpg

Here's the two very well sharpened saws cutting across ...
At about 45ish degrees for the crosscut saw, and vertical for the ripsaw.

rip xcut 014.jpg rip xcut 015.jpg

Compare that to cutting straight across ... again like a mitre saw ... with the 10pt crosscut, 6-1/2pt ripsaw and a very good machine sharpened 5pt ripsaw.

rip xcut 017.jpg rip xcut 019.jpg rip xcut 018.jpg

rip xcut 020.jpg rip xcut 021.jpg

I was really surprised at the results. I didn't time anything, but cutting flat across with the 5pt ripsaw was at least as quick as cutting in the normal way with the 10pt crosscut - and the resulting finish was better.
I didn't have time to look for and try a higher lower (ie wider) pitched crosscut saw.

Cheers,
Paul

Great thread, thanks for taking the time to put it up here

Always happy to display my ignorance and annoying, childlike simplicity.

But here's something of actual value I forgot to include ... (10pt xc, 6-1/2pt rip, 5pt rip)

special 1 002.jpg

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I had cut and planed this bit for fun,

There's a dedicated woodie for ya.

Nice collection of saws and great work on the experiments.

OK ... so I think I have re-excavated some of the reading that put me on the track to "how much can you do with just a ripsaw" ...

Here Bob R - Logan Cabinet Shoppe - talks about a question about a quote from "Walter Rose’s book, The Village Carpenter" about saws. This is from January 2013.

He says ... "Keep in mind though that prior to the late 1800s, there really is no reference or mention of fleam being used on saws. So it is quite possible/likely that earlier saws were all filed like rip saws: straight across, with no fleam.
The guys at Williamsburg file all of their saws this way (rip teeth) because of the lack of the historical evidence of fleam.
So by increasing the rake angle to the high angles that Rose mentions, a rip filed saw would be much easier to use for crosscutting tasks. Because we add fleam to crosscut saws today, such high rake angles are really no longer a necessity. We can file at more aggressive rake angles and add fleam to the teeth to allow the saw to still crosscut smoothly while still cutting fast."

Reader Questions on Saw Sharpening | Logan Cabinet Shoppe


and in March 2010 he looked at descriptions from Nicholsons book ...

"The first thing that I noticed reading through the descriptions of these four unbacked saws the first time I read Nicholson was that there was no dedicated crosscut saw. I think this is interesting to note. He describes two saws for cutting only in the direction of the grain (rip cuts) and two saws for cutting either in the direction of (ripping) or transverse to the grain (crosscutting)."

The Right Saw for the Job | Logan Cabinet Shoppe


Still haven't tracked down where I read that the european tradition was towards ripsaws only. I have an idea it was a big German tool site that I can never remember the name of. Yes yes ... Dick GmbH ... or similar ... in the section on frame and bow saws.

Cheers,
Paul

Well I am befuddled.

This saw sharpening video by Paul Sellers has been mentioned before, and I would have said - Yes, I've seen it.

Apparently not.

I thought I had at least downloaded it from Youtube, to save on harddisk.

Apparently not.

Hmmmph.

He shows has 5 of 6 saws sharpened with a rip-profile tooth.
He also talks about progressively increasing changing the rake starting at the toe.
(It is increasing ... it is getting less negative as he goes along)

Haven't watched it all yet. Can't believe I have missed it until now.

Paul

I still haven't seen it, but it must be a touch different ... ala Paul Sellers

He incorporates a diamond file I think ...

"Sorry I missed the file type. This small, purple file is made by EZE Lap who supply also the 3″ x 8″ diamond sharpening plates we use in the schools and my home shop.The file can be either medium, fine or superfine, and for this purpose the difference would be only marginal."

Some qns+feedback
https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/saw-sharpening/

and some discussion ...
Paul Sellers video on hand saw sharpening