Thread: Scraping a Plane - shocked at the speed

Yep, cast iron scrapes very nicely - unlike SS! I've used scraping (home-made from old files), to refine the blade beds when making planes. It's really hard to get the corners square & flush with a file so I usually resort to scraping to finish off to the point where a blade will contact across 90% of the bed or better by a blue test. But I find scraping rather tedious & slow-going on steel, so I try to get as close as possible with a (modified) file so I only have to work on the last mm or so at the edges.

It's a bit like planing wood - you can have a good pile of shavings but little measurable progress, which of course is the whole point of scraping, it lets you sneak up on things at a manageable pace...

Cheers,

It’s probably a bad idea but due to my own frustration of trying to figure out how to taper grind a homemade handsaw I’ve been thinking of trying to scrape, in varying thicknesses, an old saw to see how it would work. Spring steel won’t be as easy and I’ll need to figure out what kind of flat surface would work.

Yes it seems to fluff up a lot! I took to using a magnet inside a plastic bag to keep on top of the mess

well, this morning before work, I scraped the sole of an already lapped smoother some. I made "prussian blue" with linseed oil and hand american green chrome instead (it's a half micron graded pigment).

After lapping, there isn't really that much to do.

this is the first reference marking. Within five or so scrapings, there are little contact points all over the plane from end to end.

https://ofhandmaking.files.wordpress...9239841474.jpg

but I am going to go over the sole a couple of more times just to scrape more lightly as the scraper itself even after stoning the bottom will show light in various contact points under a tilted starrett straight edge.

I'd have been surprised if the sole would've showed any critical error as I'm sure I either filed or lapped this plane, even though that's only a 5 or 10 minute process sometimes on a smoother.

I've got a sense already how fast the steel wears. A 150 grit belt and then a quick stoning on a fine india stone removes all wear, and there's not that much belting needed. Fine india only to refresh it is more effort, but doable. I just figure as little as I'll do this, I'm not going to be that sparing of the bit and will do whatever is fastest. improvement in the smoothness is definitely had with the india stoning of the edge rather than using it right off of 150.

I stone the bottom with a washita finger stone just as the guy instructed in the video to eliminate both burrs and the chance of leaving a burr on the reference stone.

total involved time here both previously lapping and now scraping is going to be about one hour. If a plane is far out, I think the straight edge and filing and lapping is worthwhile to do the bulk work.

I also get a sense that the most accurate way to do this would be to finish by scraping a little of the center out and then scraping the edges, but it's not really needed here and the starrett will confirm lateral flatness when I'm done later today.

I don't think there will be a difference in performance, but we'll see. there would be if I wasn't very good at lapping.

Originally Posted by CWC

It’s probably a bad idea but due to my own frustration of trying to figure out how to taper grind a homemade handsaw I’ve been thinking of trying to scrape, in varying thicknesses, an old saw to see how it would work. Spring steel won’t be as easy and I’ll need to figure out what kind of flat surface would work.

You may already be familiar with this technique, but if not, you could make your own drawkife-shaped scraper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_bW3wrwbo&t=398&feature=youtu.be

I do have a few sens from japan - they were pennies, but they're not big enough to do more than the athol scraper tool or whatever the proper company name is.

If you had to lean into them on something, they would be stronger though. No clue what they were used for as I've never managed to get off of my duff and use them.

But, yes, definitely could form a piece of bar stock and fast quench it and snap temper it and it would be pretty good for this.

The music in that video is hilarious - it's kind of like "come rent a camper and explore the national parks with us!"

a few pictures:

marked after a scraping one of the rounds - the "german-swiss green" (I'll call it that since i made it out of linseed and chrome ox). It's a little thin on the stone here so the mark isn't the greatest, but the next round takes care of that.
wp-17087095677017575766464146049618.jpg

stoning with a novaculite finger stone - a washita finger. A nice little stone to stone off any burrs from the scraping:
wp-17087096416653908768726675364136.jpg

this gets wiped off, as per the guy's mention in the video of stoning and then the whole thing goes rubbed on the reference stone again:
I did this about 8 rounds, maybe 10. Each one is about 2 or 3 minutes.

wp-17087097223148638219830865616063.jpg

I end up here, and I realize this doesn't look much different, but the fall off in the low spots is a lot less, especially at the tail and front tip. I stoned this after the last round one more time and checked with the starrett straight edge and there is no way in the core part of this a half thousandth of space exists. it is lightfast to the straight edge and when rolling the straight edge up on its edge, very close to being perfectly light fast. I know what it looks like when a .0012 feeler no longer goes under the straight edge, and this is levels below that.

The final version looks like this - I must've gotten a little piece of dirt (my shop is not in woodworking mode right now - it is unreal filthy from chisel making):

wp-17087094751933787077269798510160.jpg

After waxing the sole and sharpening the iron, I planed some beech, but again - the clean shop thing - the wood in the shop has filth on it and the only quick piece at hand is a piece of beech with runout at the edge. Not the greatest choice. It's also old and dry. So the thinness of this shaving (which stuck to my tape dispenser) is not that great looking, but it's actually a pretty quality result.
wp-17087094204813939542746937350994.jpg

Now, can I tell the difference in performance? it looks better to the straight edge, but I'd already eliminated any significant performance threats long ago - so no, I can't really tell at this point.

However, I will say this - compared to the file method, this is easier. It's not as fast, but if you just have a glass lap, a straight edge and a bastage file, it's a lot harder to get the same accuracy in terms of thinking and keeping track of things.

I have bought LN planes that are far less flat than this one, and others that are the same. I'd rather use a stanley day to day than an LN, so cost things aside (I'm not rich, but I guess I can afford to blow money on tools - I don't care about $400 on a smoother if it's going to get used), this cost me almost nothing to do. And it's stimulating. I like it.

I can see where a shop guy will want carbide after a while, but there's no need for me to consider it in the tip. I always have a belt grinder set up and a fine belt that's broken in would do the refreshing without any stoning of the tip at all. I just didn't have one in the belt grinder at the moment.

Hi DW, The spotting in your first image in the reply just above is closer to what you need, but the green is much too thick in the other photos, you shouldn't see a smear like that. Also, are you alternating scrape directions by 90º (or so) between iterations? It's best to do that. I find scraping at 45º to the plane axis looks nice too. For reference I'm sorry I photo bombed the post, here is the sequence of spottings I did on a ridiculously concave #4 (now I think one may be out of order) Notice that as I get closer to the level I want, the spotting gets thinner. I don't mind it being a little thick in the beginning especially for something as bad as this one because it helps to see where I'm going and speeds up the process. Also note what I call flat in this context isn't flat in the inconsequential areas. You could put a straight edge up to this sole and you would see lots of daylight on the heel.
Cheers
Michael

one last follow-up comment:

I have another smoother that i knew I didn't complete the job on because it was bonkers hard - a marples 4 1/2. It's not a plane I use, but I remember it killed files and really wasn't that interested in abrasives.

I trialed a couple of rounds on it just now, and suddenly I have some appreciation for carbide!! Except I don't feel like buying another scraper. I'll buy an insert and braze it on to the end of something. The induction forge will make brazing a snap.

I'm subscribed this weekend with stuff that just won't allow me to woodwork or play tools, so I may change my mind later. The steel edge worked over the entire stanley bottom with each sharpening. the sorby plane bottom takes about three sharpenings and it's duller most of the time. I forgot this at first and thought something weird was going on with the marking green causing the cast to gum up, but nope, it's just too hard.

And that plane was not very flat - I know it wasn't very flat because it has a twist, or had one - I at least got that out.

As often as I've read how good records are, I've not really experienced that. Not sure if marples and record were together for my I. Sorby plane, but it's the only English plane I've gotten that was legitimately a match for a stanley. A Record 8 that I just sold not long ago was wartime and decent, but couldn't be used with its original lever cap.

The only real reason I have this plane is because I only have 1 4 1/2. And that's not a great reason.

I think it'll take a solid hour to fully correct the marples plane's bottom, but it'll pay off if I ever sell it on ebay.

I've probably had 100 bailey style planes, by the way. This one is the hardest by far. I don't get what they were aiming for, or maybe it was by accident or trialing a spec.

Millers falls planes were always the softest. There are things I don't love about those, but boy can you knock the wear off of their soles and get them dead flat in a hurry.

some current make really cheap planes with heavy castings have also been stupid hard, and they're not ductile cast, so I don't get it on those either other than maybe it's actually harder to nail a mid range casting hardness - who knows.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I've probably had 100 bailey style planes, by the way. This one is the hardest by far. I don't get what they were aiming for, or maybe it was by accident or trialing a spec.

Millers falls planes were always the softest. There are things I don't love about those, but boy can you knock the wear off of their soles and get them dead flat in a hurry.

some current make really cheap planes with heavy castings have also been stupid hard, and they're not ductile cast, so I don't get it on those either other than maybe it's actually harder to nail a mid range casting hardness - who knows.

I found the same DW, some of the moderner English castings were very hard, some had harder regions. The best I've done are American baileys. I did do a little Millers Falls block plane (mainly to make it look nice ) and it was buttery with the carbide.

With cast iron, It gets a skin of harder metal around the outside when cast. I assume that's the metal cooling faster on the surface in contact with the mould as its poured. And deeper in like 3 mm or 4mm in its softer because its cooling slower.
When castings are done, and machined surfaces are needed, thicker areas are left to be machined off later to a uniform softer part. To make the machining easier or possible I believe. That's part of the pattern making process, leaving the extra thickness where needed.

So these hard soled or patchy soled planes are where this hasn't been done, or the maker got a finished product by not worrying about that possibly? Plane soles would have to be machined after the molding process wouldn't they? Or are they just flattened with some type of abrasive on cheaper planes?

Is there a foundry process where a new casting is taken from the sand and re heated and placed in a slow cool environment to anneal? Is cast iron similar in heat treatment to a carbon steel is what I'm wondering. Can it be annealed or hardened? I'm not suggesting to start re heat treating plane body's. Just curious if if works that way.

It'd be really interesting to see a number of planes tested by maker and age with the right tools , a straight edge or just marked on a surface plate to see how far out they are. That would have an effect on peoples buying habits.
I had apprentices some years back who bought new Blue no 7 Jointers where the sole didn't work very well at all. Not flat enough to work. We didn't have the tools to measure them though.

Originally Posted by mic-d

Hi DW, The spotting in your first image in the reply just above is closer to what you need, but the green is much too thick in the other photos, you shouldn't see a smear like that. Also, are you alternating scrape directions by 90º (or so) between iterations? It's best to do that. I find scraping at 45º to the plane axis looks nice too. For reference I'm sorry I photo bombed the post, here is the sequence of spottings I did on a ridiculously concave #4 (now I think one may be out of order) Notice that as I get closer to the level I want, the spotting gets thinner. I don't mind it being a little thick in the beginning especially for something as bad as this one because it helps to see where I'm going and speeds up the process. Also note what I call flat in this context isn't flat in the inconsequential areas. You could put a straight edge up to this sole and you would see lots of daylight on the heel.
Cheers
Michael

I missed this earlier - I agree on the green. there's a *lot* of it at the beginning but sensing that was too much, I let it thin out some and then applied less when needing to apply a little to the reference surface later. I think my version of it is still a bit dry and looked up the commercial products.

I'm using almost all pigment and a little oil, and I noticed at least that permatex uses jelly instead of oil as the medium. I'm supposing that they do that because it's cheaper to get the same physical consistency and pigment at the micronized level isn't terribly cheap. I'm using linseed oil, but it has no driers, so it won't dry today, but it would over time.

I'll use pigment and mineral oil for the next little mix of the green.

This is the first thing I've ever scraped, though, so learning by feel. The first was too thick, and I noticed if the film gets too thin, it won't properly mark the sole.

As for the directions, some straight through, some probably more like 30 degrees off of straight and some 30 degrees off in the opposite direction, but nothing consistent yet. to do it cosmetically nice and not have a burr that scuffs some marks is definitely we'll past where I'll be for a while, but I'm cognizant of it. I noticed, too, that if one scrapes too aggressively and then comes back across almost perpendicular, it's pretty hard on the scraper's edge.

Pleased with it so far, plenty of room for improvement and better feel of things with experience.