Thread: Secret Mitred Dovetail

Hi Luke

The secret mitred dovetail is covered in one of David Charlesworth's books on Furniture Making Techniques.
Give me a day or two and I'll send you a copy of the article.



thoughts
I'm starting to distrust YouTube how to vids, to my mind too many are by people still learning proper technique with hand tools.
I rather like Christopher Schwarz's scathing comment about the number of eyeballs that can be commanded by "a woodworker in tight shorts or a muscle shirt"

Further to Ian's post, David has a particularly good video that he recently released. His style may be slow for some, but the detail he presents makes each step clear. In particular, the forward planning needed with this joint is apparent. Luke, get this video.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Also, a couple of things jumped out to me about this guy's technique.

First, he does almost zero chopping to clear his sockets. Everything is pared. To me, this seems both completely unnecessary and incredibly inefficient.

i think the wood he's using is pretty soft and if you're not doing too many it's probably not all that much slower, and is a bit safer (less chance of breaking through the joint).

What jumped out at me is his workbench. Mine never ever looked that clean even when it was brand new...

Well I watched the full video and I have to admit that the outside of my eyes saw some of it.
There must be a strange satisfaction to complete a perfect full blind dovetail knowing that to everyone else it looks like you used a Domino. Just add a few scribe lines and some random "overcuts" on the inside and no one will know.

David has a particularly good video that he recently released. His style may be slow for some, but the detail he presents makes each step clear.

i liked Derek's comment. I have never got through a David video without nodding off. His style is slow, and his gentle voice is so soporific, in a nice way. But he is a master craftsman and a great tutor. So I have to watch each of his videos a few times to catch it all

On a recent 3 hour Jetstar flight between Sydney and Townsville, which I hate because I am jammed in a seat with no room to move ( 6'2" and 105kg and legs aching all the while), I put one of David's videos on my iPad and used my noise cancellation headphones connected to it. Snoozed off a couple of times, best flight I ever had, and learnt a bit about how to use of chisels in various joints too

'Struth, you're right, some video makers could do with a decent editor! I had to fast-forward the video several times to stay awake, but I think I saw enough to know that the general approach is the same as the one I learned from an early FWW. That Sapele must be nice stuff to work, there aren't many woods I know that pare so easily at 45 degrees against the grain, as he was doing! I do think he made it unnecessarily tedious, paring out the waste slice by slice like that - maybe he just wanted to show us how sharp his chisels are? Anyway, he got it done, and he's shown you that you can get a nice fit if you take your time and work to the lines...

I've only used full-blind dovetails twice in my life, and they were on smallish items, with quite thin boards. In my mind, doing them on thicker boards should be easier, but I may never know as I haven't any projects in the foreseeable future that call for them. From the limited experience I do have, it was the cutting of the mitres that I remember as the tricky part; doing the D/Ts was no more difficult than 'regular' half-blinds. The mitres obviously have to be flawless, or the whole effect will be spoiled. My general rule for 'scaling up' is I have to be even more meticulous with layout, and work as accurately as I possibly can. Errors always seem to amplify over wider boards!

'Tis a strange sort of joint, all that painstaking work, and if it's done well, you are the only one who knows that, but then most of us do these things to challenge ourselves, I suppose. I think it has limited application, but certainly gives you a nice, clean joint when it's gong to be visible from all angles, as on box sides. As to using it on a drawer, as in the demo, I think that's the preserve of a person with lots of time & a much smaller 'to do' list than mine! A half-blind D/T would surely be stronger (more wood in the 'structural' part of the joint), & take me a lot less time to make ....

Cheers,

In Japan, these joints are used by Sashimono craftsmen all the time. I remember a very good video showing how the dude laid it all out and cut it very quickly.... Perfectly too.

This is one of them: 江戸指物 - YouTube

Ill find the others. Ignore the Japanese, watch the techniques

Anyone have an opinion on using them on the long grain? Seems to me that you would have more long grain glue surface than you otherwise would with through dovetails. I'm considering them for something like a tall, pantry-style cabinet that would have a 5-6" long grain mitre joint along all four corners. I know this would take forever, but it seems like the strongest construction method, at least in my mind.

Cheers,
Luke

Sorry, that was meant to say 5-6 foot long mitres on each corner.

Originally Posted by ian

The secret mitred dovetail is covered in one of David Charlesworth's books on Furniture Making Techniques.
Give me a day or two and I'll send you a copy of the article.

HI Luke

I've just emailed the article to you

Luke,

Sounds like a labor of love.

Cheers,
Rob

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Anyone have an opinion on using them on the long grain? Seems to me that you would have more long grain glue surface than you otherwise would with through dovetails. I'm considering them for something like a tall, pantry-style cabinet that would have a 5-6" long grain mitre joint along all four corners. I know this would take forever, but it seems like the strongest construction method, at least in my mind.

Hi Luke

I'm not sure why you would want to use dovetails for a long grain to long grain joint. Besides, the rubbed glue joint being more than strong enough, the pins would all be short grain and liable to breaking off if the joint were to be stressed.


Also, I'm having difficulty visualising the construction you mention. A 5 to 6 foot long joint, implies a very very deep cupboard which would normally be framed and sheeted like a wall with a door.

Originally Posted by ian

Also, I'm having difficulty visualising the construction you mention. A 5 to 6 foot long joint, implies a very very deep cupboard which would normally be framed and sheeted like a wall with a door.

Ian,

I was talking about a full height cupboard that's only maybe 16" x 16" footprint. Think about something shaped like a school locker. The joints in question are those which run the full height of the cupboard, which would be the direction of the grain as well.

Cheers,
Luke

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Ian,

I was talking about a full height cupboard that's only maybe 16" x 16" footprint. Think about something shaped like a school locker. The joints in question are those which run the full height of the cupboard, which would be the direction of the grain as well.

Cheers,
Luke

My advice is don't

The joints you mention are face grain to face grain, if your cupboard has a face frame just glue it on, and for the back, a ply or veneer panel in a rebate is a much better construction choice. If using ply or veneer board offends, you would use a frame and panel in the rebate.

Your bigger issue with a cupboard 5 to 6 feet high is bowing of the sides, which can be controlled using 2 or 3 fixed shelves.