Thread: Shooting Boards - which plane?

Those 204's are sub-optimal as standard; if you take them apart you'll see that the frogs are free to move around side to side as well as front to back which doesn't help when you're trying to get a specific amount of set on the iron. You CAN make them perform well but in order to do that you need to know every which bit to fettle and adjust.

Older Stanleys are miles apart; my absolute favourite plane right now is a number 5 made in 1911 that just works spectacularly well. Any Stanley made up to WW2 will be fine for your needs; as will a Record plane made up until 1956. See HERE for dating Stanleys and HERE for Records. One of my future workshop projects is to build a ramped shooting board and I have a nice Record 05-1/2 to go with it.

Saying that; Veritas are game changers. Their LA jack would be my first choice for use on a shooting board and also as a plane in it's own right but if funds were available I'd buy one of their dedicated shooting planes. Derek Cohen has written up on both planes on his website and even made a "hotdog" handle for the LA specifically to use it on a shooting board.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

But...but...the Stanleys are rubbish. The winding mechanism is entirely insufficient and has more play in it than a school ground swing. Wind juuuuuuust a hair in and it's ok, rewind it just half a hair out and the blade moves 15 times more in the opposite direction.

I understand what you mean. When you wind back the depth adjuster, there is no apparent movement of the blade/cap iron assembly until the yoke hit the top of the slot in the cap iron. This is universal to all stanley design as far as I know. I guess how much play would be dictated by how much bigger the slot than the yoke.

Even though there is no apparent movement, backing off the adjuster will cause the iron to retract when you push the plane forward as the planing action is sufficient to push the iron back slightly until it the cap iron engages fully with the yoke. The only time it doesn't do that is when the lever cap is too tight.

Stanley was made so that depth adjustment can be made while you're planing, which is usually done by feel, until you are happy with the thickness of your shavings, rather than looking at the blade per se. Make sure the lever cap/blade assembly has a bit of paraffin on both the top and underside, and adjust the cap screw so the iron sits firmly but not too tight.

I personally prefer the stanley type adjustment than the veritas where both the depth and lateral adjustments are done by one knob. I often move the knob laterally by accident when I try to adjust depth of cut. I like the stanley myself where both adjustments are separate and I can do my adjustment on the run.

Even if you decide to get a Veritas, which is a good plane by the way. I suggest you keep working on the stanley. It's worth the effort.

There is so much to know that its doing my head in.

Given what I THINK I need, I'll probably order the Veritas Low Angle Smoother .... the gods only know what blade type.....

My primary application is for finishing off dovetails. You mongrels have me hooked now. I've a few japanese saws that will do the trick plus 80 Japanese chisels, so I'm sure there is something there to tide me over until I get the proper saws and one(!!) of the fancy dovetail chisels.

I also though, with this one, I could:

-- plane my boards nice and flat
-- use it with a shooting board setup for tidying the ends of my range of display cabinets
-- finish any joins done for my little boxes

I don't think I need a big shooting plane..... yet, and the little Block plane isn't needed.... yet. I'm not into shelf decoration, so I'll get those later on when I have a proper excuse!

Going unplugged sure is a messy business. I feel exhausted just choosing the right plane. Wait until Her Hugs sees that order come in next week..... sheez!

Originally Posted by woodPixel

.... Given what I THINK I need, I'll probably order the Veritas Low Angle Smoother .... the gods only know what blade type.....

......I don't think I need a big shooting plane..... yet, and the little Block plane isn't needed.... yet. I'm not into shelf decoration, so I'll get those later on when I have a proper excuse!

Maybe start with the O1 - easier to sharpen. Won't hold an edge like a PMV11, but it still does very well. For small work, the LA smoother works quite well on a shooting board - I used mine in that role for quite a while before deciding to get a LA jack. The extra weight gives you a bit more momentum, so it's a bit easier to use for wider boards. As mentioned, the dedicated shooting plane would be a lovely luxury to have, but I doubt I'll ever spring for one, I just can't justify dropping that many $$$ on such a specialised tool....

Originally Posted by woodPixel

......Going unplugged sure is a messy business. I feel exhausted just choosing the right plane. Wait until Her Hugs sees that order come in next week..... sheez!

It'll all settle down in time, after all, you can only fit so many tools into an average workspace...

Cheers,

I bought a Veritas LAJ and found it to be a great plane. BUT, when I tried it on a chuting board I found the width (height) and the relatively low sides (now a narrow base) meant that I couldn't avoid tilting and wobble (my poor technique ).

I put a sharp blade in a 1960/70s Record T5 from my rathole, and with a side handle, found it much more stable to chute with. Short of a No.51 (Stanley, Lie-Nielsen or Veritas) the T5 must have the biggest side area of any cast-iron plane.

Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

I bought a Veritas LAJ and found it to be a great plane. BUT, when I tried it on a chuting board I found the width (height) and the relatively low sides (now a narrow base) meant that I couldn't avoid tilting and wobble (my poor technique ).

I put a sharp blade in a 1960/70s Record T5 from my rathole, and with a side handle, found it much more stable to chute with. Short of a No.51 (Stanley, Lie-Nielsen or Veritas) the T5 must have the biggest side area of any cast-iron plane.

Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Vann

Below is an extract from an article I wrote comparing a LN #51 (on a Stanley #52 chute board), a LN #9 and a LV LA Jack (on flat and ramped boards) ...

The Ease of Use

The #51/52 combination was in a class of its own. Even a novice could easily produce clean edges without fail. The #51 is captured by the rails of the #52, and this guides the plane so that all the user needs do is push the plane forward.

The advantage of the #9 over the LAJ is twofold: there is better registration for the base of the plane, and this encourages a user to push the plane in the ideal manner. When a novice was given the choice of the #9 and the LAJ, they would inevitably plump for the #9.

However … when the user was taught how to push the LAJ, and/or the LAJ was used with a hotdog handle, very frequently this choice was reversed. The factor here is that the LAJ is potentially more tippy because it has a smaller footprint, it. I recall one person thrusting the LAJ forward .. and bouncing it against the fence at a canted angle.

The correct way (in my opinion) of holding the LAJ (and shooting planes generally), is to exert downforce at a central point while simultaneously exerting low lateral sideforce. One must not attempt to simply push the plane against the sidewall to the shooting board. This will unbalance the plane and cause it to cant over.





Downforce is applied by the thumb directly into the dimpled fingerhole. Sideforce is applied by the four fingertips pushing from under the levercap.
This handhold is quite comfortable and makes the LAJ a practical user without a hotdog. Indeed, there is the potential for someone to grasp a hotdog (whether on the LV or LN LAJ planes) and attempt to push it against the fence from high (and not use their fingers to maintain sideways pressure from low).

Contributing to “tippiness” is the amount of “run up” to the board that is used. Many – both experienced and novices alike – would draw the plane back to the start of the runway, and then push it forward fast in an attempt to create momentum, as if this was necessary to power through the end grain. Shooting in this manner would lead to user losing control of the plane.

What is necessary for control is minimum run up. Place the plane with the blade nearly touching the near edge of the board, and then simply push the plane forward, with even pressure and firmly. Since the shaving removed is very fine, a plane with a sharp blade will cut without much effort. Once this was understood, the extra mass of the LAJ was an advantage over the more stable #9.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...sCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, as always your lightest touch commands obedience.... Now I'm going to have to buy a LAJ as well since I was going to use the plane for shooting duties too...

dovetails and shooting. Two planes now. Looks like I'll order when the next client pays, not now... Maybe a week.

At this rate I'll be back to the original three....

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Derek, as always your lightest touch commands obedience.... Now I'm going to have to buy a LAJ as well since I was going to use the plane for shooting duties too...

dovetails and shooting. Two planes now. Looks like I'll order when the next client pays, not now... Maybe a week.

At this rate I'll be back to the original three....

or just one plane

if you cut your dovetails so that the pins and tails protrude just a smidgen, then when it comes to cleaning up, you are cutting end grain -- the shooting board plane (low angle jack) will do an excellent job.
Of course, if the box / drawer sides need trimming, then you're better off doing this with a jointer plane -- #6 or #7

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Given what I THINK I need, I'll probably order the Veritas Low Angle Smoother

Perhaps it's the same or similar with the low angle Veritas planes, but I've found that the Bevel Up series (a Smoother and a Jointer) can handle just about anything - from soft to nasty - by simply changing the blade to one with a different angle, and adjusting the mouth width. Derek knows the Veritas range so he could comment on that. There must be some differences in their capabilities otherwise they wouldn't persist with putting out the two different ranges - would they ??? Maybe that's already been covered, but I haven't read all the vacillating - it does my head in.

You can either have more than one blade in the supplied angles (25, 38, 50), or just hone at a different micro-bevel on a couple of different blades of the same supplied angle. That is, one 25° blade microbeveled at say 27°, and another 25° microbeveled at 38°. Personally I don't see much sense in using the same supplied angles for different micro bevel angles, and so I purchased a 25, 38 and 50. Changing the micro bevel angle within the one blade (from job to job) to save money is not a worthwhile exercise in overall saving, IMO, and restrictive. I bought my two planes with a 38 fitted, and have 1x 25°, and 1x 50° to share between both planes, plus a toothed blade for fully incorrigible and corrupted grain.

Whatever you do, if you are buying more than one plane, make sure they can accept the same blades (width and thickness). That allows you to swap them around as you please to either save sharpening at a critical moment, or if you have chipped a blade and need to rehab it. It also allows you to have two primary blades at your most often used angle (say 25° if you are a softie, or 38° if you are a normal Aussie), and then just have one 38° and one 50° to share between them (saves a bit of dough). Add a duplicate later if you need to.

Note that changing blades in these is no where near as tedious as on the Classic Stanleys, and that backlash is absolutely minimal.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

.... the gods only know what blade type.....

I have a vague memory that you purchased Cast Iron plates from Joe for using diamond paste? If so then definitely go for the PMV11 steel, no question. If you are persisting with waterbloodystones then you will need stones of a certain minimum standard to handle PMV11, and infinite patience with mess, stone flattening and general buggerising around (there are still a few who disagree ). If you do not have a fairly comprehensive sharpening system in place then head straight for the diamonds - quicker, cheaper entry, handles any steel hardness, nil ongoing maintenance, and virtually nil mess. As I understand it, you have as much patience for fiddle-arsing about as I do.




Whatever you decide to do.....it's time to use the potty, or jump off You can't possibly expect to get all your plane purchases nailed in the first attempt, even if it does maximise the freight costs. Furthermore, your needs/wants will change is you grow in skill and confidence, and that knowledge will shape your next purchase differently to what it would have previously been. It's like trying to buy all the router bits you'll ever need - without any duds - eez no possible.

If you buy sensibly (i.e. quality) you can sell and change without taking too much of a hit.

Originally Posted by IanW

Maybe start with the O1 - easier to sharpen. Won't hold an edge like a PMV11, but it still does very well.

Woodpixel, I think Ian has given great advice. Learn to sharpen on the softer (relative, it's still tool steel) O1, and then after you have gone through several ah! ha! moments as you sharpening moves to higher tiers, then consider moving on to PMV11.

Originally Posted by IanW

For small work, the LA smoother works quite well on a shooting board - I used mine in that role for quite a while before deciding to get a LA jack. The extra weight gives you a bit more momentum, so it's a bit easier to use for wider boards. As mentioned, the dedicated shooting plane would be a lovely luxury to have, but I doubt I'll ever spring for one, I just can't justify dropping that many $$$ on such a specialised tool....

No arguments, really, but I use a LN LA Jack plane as my go to smoother. The longer sole compensates somewhat for my suboptimal technique. A LA jack would be my first choice - either LN, LV or Luban.



Fair Winds

Graeme

I'm lucky in that sharpening isn't my problem. Ive 12 japanese made kitchen knives (from Gifu Japan), a few Kanna and almost 100 Jap Chisels... all as sharp as razors.

Problem is the Kanna in Canberra are terrible. One set they last a bit then they are out to buggery. The days humidity/dry, hot/cold cycles are too much. Perfect to use one minute, then demons 30 mins later.

The big workbench will be started soon... Im getting rid of jobs/clients as fast as I can, then there will be some "me" time.

Might be ordering tomorrow,... perhaps...

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Problem is the Kanna in Canberra are terrible. One set they last a bit then they are out to buggery. The days humidity/dry, hot/cold cycles are too much. Perfect to use one minute, then demons 30 mins later.

Well, you Kanna have the right technique laddie.

Just to add some more opinion / personal experience. I don't think I have the authority to counter or question any of the other contributors to this thread, so what I have to offer is MY journey down this slippery slope of hand planes.

When I got back into my woodworking not that long ago, all I had was a Falcon #5, and was never confident enough to use it on a job (other than roughing).

I adopted the Paul Sellers method of shooting board manufacture (have a look on YouTube). It's not difficult at all. My latest board is set with 90 / 45 and 22.5 degree fences that go into place with a tap of a hammer, and are removed the same way. An under side fence locks into the bench vice, or simply hooks over the edge of the bench. In my current project, I have the shooting board on the right hand side of the bench, and vice on the left side which makes things reasonably efficient.

In my first foray into shooting boards, I used a #8 ... too big ... to heavy ... partial success at best, and I couldn't really get the blade sharp enough (bench grinder and an old oil stone I reckon Noah himself used to build the ark).

So I moved on to this scary sharp method. PITA ... went through sand paper like topsy ... but got a reasonable edge.

After much research, I purchased the veritas low angle jack. Great for shooting !! Low presentation angle certainly helps a lot !!



In the image above, the board is 360mm wide and about 2100mm long. I could probably shoot 400mm+ without difficulty. Image below is one of the shavings off 1/3 of the board (American black walnut). About 2 thou I think.



As others have said ... SHARP is the key. So my sons kindly purchased me some Sigma Power ceramic stones (1000/6000/13000) from Tools from Japan for Christmas a couple of years back. Really good edge !!

Stropping takes the edge to another level again ... and better for maintaining too ! Blade loses the edge ... 20 to 30 swipes on the strop and the edge is back ... maybe three lots of stropping between trips back to the stones.

I have taken shavings like the above from Sydney Blue Gum, which when I first tried shooting, felt like I was trying to plane the end of a bit of concrete. No shaving .. just a dull thud and sore hands. The LAJ, and an improved approach to sharpening has fixed that.

I read regularly that shooting planes MUST have registration side square to sole. Complete tripe !! That's what blade lateral adjustment is for.

I also have a bog old white candle permanently on hand. If the plane feels like it's hard to push, a squiggle on the sole and/or side makes a world of difference.

While I am fan of the low angle plane for end grain, I am not a big fan of it for face and edge work. I picked up a 4 1/2 falcon on eBay for a little over $60 and a 4 1/2 Stanley (post ww2) for about the same. They are my preferred planes for smoothing.

I replaced the buggered iron that came with the Falcon (too pitted) with the heavy IBC Cosman blade and breaker. At times it feels like I'm trying to push a bill dozer through the timber, but it works well.

I also have my grandfathers #8 for jointing and/or flattening long boards. The blade was also too pitted, so I purchased a pre loved blade from Jim Davey. The plane looks as rough as guts, and I think the sole needs work, but I am now quite comfortable with it. No fear jointing long boards.

Again, I keep that candle within reach at all times. My grandfather (a joiner by trade) kept an oil roll on his bench similar to this... https://youtu.be/npKo1y2e8RI

Somewhere on this forum is an exceptionally long post about chip breaker / cap iron setting with inputs from many who have commented on this thread. Do yourself a favour and have a read. Quite entertaining for starters ... and some great information exchange to boot.

Have a look at this video about setting the cap iron.
https://youtu.be/xmDVa5cxq8w

So, November 2013 I had a single 5 1/2 falcon. 3 1/2 years later and I have #8, #6, #5, 2 x 4 1/2, LAJ, LA block and a couple of works in progress.

Notwithstanding all of this diatribe, I might suggest that persistence and patience is key.

Probably you mean this thread Glenn (nice Walnut board, btw):
Chip breakers ... not cap irons .. and what they really do!