Thread: Shoulder Plane Blade?

Lie-Nielsen
Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Tapered Molding Plane Iron Blanks
I believe the correct term is square rabbet plane.

Originally Posted by msiemsen

Lie-Nielsen
Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Tapered Molding Plane Iron Blanks
I believe the correct term is square rabbet plane.

Right, thanks thanks for that (the terminology correction also )

Originally Posted by msiemsen

Lie-Nielsen
Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Tapered Molding Plane Iron Blanks
I believe the correct term is square rabbet plane.

Rabbet plane is only if you are an American. Rebate plane for English and Aussies. We rebate timber and a rabbet is what a magician nearly pulls out of a hat. (if there is an i in it)

Why did the USA go for the term "Rabbet" Does anyone know? I would like to know. Dado is another one. We trench or house.

Col.

its always been my thought that the word was originally heard wrong by americans, "rebate" when pronounced by some heavy accented yorkshiremen, irshman or whatever would easily sound like 'rabbet' or 'rabbit'...

the confusion has been around for a while though so i doubt we will ever know for sure and it seems as though the english tradesmen sometimes called a rebate, a rabbit! (yes easter bunny) but out of fun or as a slang word

here's an excerpt/quote from a (largely fictional) book written by an anonymous english tradesman in 1839 The Joiner and Cabinet Maker 1839

"...the back is rebated into the sides, top, and bottom. To rebate means to take away... But the workmen who do not trouble their heads to think why a word is used, call this joint a rabbit, though certainly it is not much like the four footed animal of the same name. the word is written rebate, rebating; but it is generally read rabbit, rabbiting."



the dictionary says rebate is to take away, depending on the dictionary it might be phrased a different way but the word Rabbet only has a meaning referring to the american woodworking term, i'd say it was one of those slang words that took hold and became the norm for americans


just to confuse things more lol, ironically the old french word for rebate is rebbat, almost spelt the same as the americans but not quite, pronunciation of that word has to be said with a Pepé Le Pew accent though, maybe thats where the americans went wrong





OP; i'd say lie nielsen is a good bet as well, but in a pinch you might be able to get Paul Williams to make a HSS one up, suggested just as an alternative is all, other wise second hand from the usual sources...whats wrong with the one you got? cast steel i presume? cast steel makes for a nice blade usualy

HNT Gordon and# PAUL WILLIAMS Irons

[QUOTE=ch!ppy;1469907]its always been my thought that the word was originally heard wrong by americans, "rebate" when pronounced by some heavy accented yorkshiremen, irshman or whatever would easily sound like 'rabbet' or 'rabbit'...

the confusion has been around for a while though so i doubt we will ever know for sure and it seems as though the english tradesmen sometimes called a rebate, a rabbit! (yes easter bunny) but out of fun or as a slang word

here's an excerpt/quote from a (largely fictional) book written by an anonymous english tradesman in 1839 The Joiner and Cabinet Maker 1839

"...the back is rebated into the sides, top, and bottom. To rebate means to take away... But the workmen who do not trouble their heads to think why a word is used, call this joint a rabbit, though certainly it is not much like the four footed animal of the same name. the word is written rebate, rebating; but it is generally read rabbit, rabbiting."



the dictionary says rebate is to take away, depending on the dictionary it might be phrased a different way but the word Rabbet only has a meaning referring to the american woodworking term, i'd say it was one of those slang words that took hold and became the norm for americans


just to confuse things more lol, ironically the old french word for rebate is rebbat, almost spelt the same as the americans but not quite, pronunciation of that word has to be said with a Pepé Le Pew accent though, maybe thats where the americans went wrong




Thanks for that. It clears up some of my curiosity. How about Dado? Whats that about? A dado panel goes on the lower half of a wall but how did the Yanks get dado for a trench or housing joint?

Very interesting how things change from country to country?



Col.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

i'd say lie nielsen is a good bet as well, but in a pinch you might be able to get Paul Williams to make a HSS one up, suggested just as an alternative is all, other wise second hand from the usual sources...whats wrong with the one you got? cast steel i presume? cast steel makes for a nice blade usually

It has some quite bad pitting that doesn't show up too well in the picture, and I thought if a replacement is available without forfeiting one of my arms and legs, that maybe it'd be a good time to give it a new iron.

The usual places don't list that style of iron on their webpages. I have sent HNT Gordon an email a few minutes ago. I did find a webpage from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools (Homepage of Dieter Schmid's Fine Tools), that does list this style of iron, at not a bad price, but doesn't list if it's mild steel, HSS, etc. I've sent them an email also, but no reply as of yet.

Crikey, no wonder I got confused about the name of the poor little thing! Thanks for sharing your knowledge tho, I appreciate it.

The online Etymology Dictionary says this,
rebate (v.) early 15c., "to deduct, subtract," from O.Fr. rabattre "beat down, drive back," also "deduct," from re- "repeatedly" (see re-) + abattre "beat down" (see abate). Meaning "to pay back (a sum) as a rebate" is from 1957. Related: Rebated; rebating. The noun is 1650s, from the verb.
rabbet late 14c. (implied in rabbeting), from O.Fr. rabbat "a recess in a wall," lit. "a beating down," from rabattre "beat down, beat back" (see rebate). The verb is attested from 1560s.

It appears that the word we yanks use is older by a century.

The French word for a woodworking plane is Rabot. It is also their word for a plane in geometry.

I have no idea about dado.

There are many words that separate our common language

Would you care to be knocked up in the morning? amer(impregnated)
Could you iron my pants for me? amer(trousers)
I went to a boot sale. amer(work shoes)
I shagged a bus to get to work. amer(caught, jumped aboard)
Coat your oil stones in Paraffin before using amer(canning wax)

Mike

Hello Johnredl
I have a couple of broken saw blades, HSS 2.4 thick . I can cut you a rplacement blade @ no cost to you. Are you interested?

Gerard

msiemsen

Most Australians are horrified when they first hear parents in the US talking about 'putting down the children'. In Australia you 'put down' injured livestock with a bullet to the head.

Someone once described the British and the Americans(US) as one people forever divided by a common language.

Originally Posted by bsrlee

......
Someone once described the British and the Americans(US) as one people forever divided by a common language.

But no-one seems to know who that 'someone' was! It is variously attributed to George Bernard Shaw (& sounds like the sort of thing he would have said) and Churchill, but nothing appears to exist in writing to confirm that either said it. The closest that people can find is a quote by Oscar Wilde in The Canterville Ghost, 1887, some years earlier than Shaw was supposed to have said it:

"We have everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language".

And "Dado" is a perfectly good word, with long usage in 'English' English, just not in the American sense:
da·do (dd) n. pl. da·does (from Latin 'datum' via Italian)
1. Architecture. The section of a pedestal between base and surbase.
2. The lower portion of the wall of a room, decorated differently from the upper section, as with panels.
3. A rectangular groove cut into a board so that a like piece may be fitted into it.
b. The groove so cut.

It's the 3rd meaning that seems to be exclusive to American English. It may have come from mis-hearing or mis-spelling omeother word (can't think what that might have been) or someone's mis-interpretation of the original architectural meanings...

Lots of words have changed their meanings over the last couple of hundred years, & new words added. If we hadn't had mass communication the way it's been for the last century or so, there would be much greater differences by now, I suspect.

Today's trivia leson, with apologies for the hijack...

John - I'll be interested to hear if HNT has a blade that will suit your plane. Because he uses such a high angle on his planes, the 'stems' on his blades tend to be too short for the 'conventional' lower-angled rebate planes. So unless he also has other blades, his standard blades aren't suitable for your plane....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by SHEETMETAL

Hello Johnredl
I have a couple of broken saw blades, HSS 2.4 thick . I can cut you a rplacement blade @ no cost to you. Are you interested?

Gerard

Goodness yes! Thank you very much Would you like me to send you the old one, or are measurements enough?

Is there anything that I will need to do to it? I assume that I will need to grind a bevel, but on some other threads they talk about heat treating, is that something that I need to do? Sorry, I have only been using handplanes for about 6 months, so they are still a little new to me, and I really don't know much about HSS except its harder than A2.

Just as interest, I contacted HNT, who put me onto Paul Williams. Paul was incredibly knowledgeable and spent 15 or so minutes talking me through buying and setting up a 8" high speed grinding setup using oxide wheels, and 2 pieces of steel to cool the iron if it gets too hot. He left me inspired to go straight to the tool shop and buy an 8" HS grinder...to which I didn't because the kids were grumpy...but it's on my shopping list.

Paul said that he was making some #7 irons soon, but had stopped making #4/5 irons (I have been thinking about getting HSS irons for my 4/5/7 also, the standard Bailey irons are crap!). He gave me the number for Trent (Harold & Saxon I think?), who was also really nice. He said that although they don't advertise it, they do make irons, and had some #4/5 in stock, and could cut both a #7 and the rebate/shoulder/rabbit iron from some HSS. I found the exact rebate iron online for about $25euro, but not HSS.

Just need to actually fork over the money for the 4,5 & 7...but I may have a spousal roadblock...maybe if I tell her that I CAN'T make the kids bed without new irons? Might work right? I am saving money by making the beds instead of buying them after all

Hi John, just as an aside, I've been trying to ring Trent Powrie for weeks with no luck. When did you catch him?

Cheers, Brett

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Hi John, just as an aside, I've been trying to ring Trent Powrie for weeks with no luck. When did you catch him?

Cheers, Brett

I'll PM you his number