Thread: The Simonds Saw Story

Sorry the screws being around the wrong way might be a victim of my lazyness when flipping the image. They are on the same side as the faint etchings.

More pictures - can plainly see made of simonds steel - but the etching on the left is pretty much indecipherable.

20170320_173032.jpg20170320_173042.jpg20170320_175903.jpg

You netter delete those pics. Paul might start to droul

Sometimes if you play with contrast and hue you may see more detail.

DaveTTC

Turning Wood into Art

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Paul,

Can you give us a little primer on the dating of Simonds saws?
Regards,
Rob

Hi Rob

I realised half way though my post that the title might have suggested a potentially unnatural attachment to these tools, but that is not really the case!

I somehow missed this post of yours and only spotted it because I had chanced upon more information on the intriguing joiner's saws that you and others had raised a while back and went searching for the thread. So now I have two missions to complete. This is the first. Although I have addressed this in the past, there are some revisions following more information, so this is a timely request

Just as with Disston, there are two primary indicators. Firstly the medallions and secondly the position of the saw screws. The handle styles in some instances will date the saws, but only with certain models and the models themselves also date the saws as very few were made throughout the twenty six years Simonds produced hand saws. The No 10. was in the range from start to finish and the back saws were the same and the saw screw positions help to identify that saw too. All the other models were either not there at the beginning or not there at the end.

Incidentally Simonds starting making saws in 1976, but these were circular saws and at some time after that they made bandsaws too.

Their entry into the hand saw market in 1900 through to at the latest November 1904 was the Crescent Moon and Star era. The etch on the saw plate and the medallion depicted this:

thumb_P1020667_1024.jpg

The second era was that of Simonds Saw and Manufacturing, which I call the "manufacturing" era (but that is purely my terminology) ran from November 1904 through to 1922. I have previously said 1923, but I have some information that indicates the change in company name occured late 1922. The 1923 catalogue is the first to show the last style.

thumb_P1020669_1024.jpg


This brings us to the third era and the Simonds Saw and Steel company. The medallions reflect this through to the cessation of hand saw manufacture in 1926.

thumb_P1020671_1024.jpg

Now the mathematicians amongst you will note that is only three eras and this is because the "dollar" medallions were produced contemporaneously with the "manufacturing medallion" but only for a handful of years and exclusively on the Blue Ribbon range. They appear in the 1910, 1914 and 1916 catalogues. To my mind they are one of the most amazing medallions produced by any manufacturer and were the cost of the saw. The same cost is also etched on the saw plate.

thumb_P1020672_1024.jpg

Frequently the blue enamel has fallen out. The prices ranged from $1.75 to $3.00 depending on size and model. Only the "60" series the "70" series and the No.51 were treated to this medallion. The latter price was reserved for the 28" 60 series and the 26" "No Set" No.51.

I do have a timeline for the various models that I have gleaned from the catalogues and that also assists with dating the saws, but computer issues don't give me access to that information at the moment so I will post a chart at a later date.

I hope that helps a little.

Regards
Paul

Thanks Paul,

All of the Simonds saws (5) I've gathered to date for my hardness study fall into the 1904-1922 range. At this point they appear to be slightly softer (-1.48%) and more variable (+50%) than the Disston Golden Era saws. The differences aren't statistically significant, P = 0.298 and 0.206.

Regards,
Rob

Rob

Just out of interest, what models are your Simonds saws? It may have no bearing on the hardness issue at all of course.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

I have three handsaws and two backsaws. Two are No. 10's and one is a No. 8. The backsaws lack visible etches. I'll assemble them for a picture.

Regards,
Rob

Not quite sure how all this is going to go as I am wrestling with a new computer. This information is either based on catalogs I have or where I have seen pictures of the saws. The catalogue reference is fairly explanatory, but for example with the No.51, which does not feature in any catalogue (that I have seen so far) I have pictures of that saw with two types of medallion from the "manufacturing" era and the "dollar" era; The No.310 1/2 I have not seen in any catalogue, but I have one.


SIMONDS TIMELINE

SIMONDS SAW MODEL	CM & S Medallion 1901 -1904(Nov)	Dollar Medallion 1910 - 1914	Manufacturing Medallion 1904 (Dec) - 1922	Saw and Steel Medallion 1923 - 1926
No.4	X		X
No.4A	X
No.4 1/2	X		X
No.5	X		X
No.5A	X
No.6	X
No.7	X		X
No.7A	X
No.7 1/2	X		X
No.8	X		X
No.8A	X		X
No.8 1/2	X		X
No.9	X		X
No 10	X		X	X
No.10 1/2			X	X
No.310 1/2				X
No.61		X	X	X
No.361		X	X	X
No.62		X	X	X
No.362		X	X	X
No.71		X	X	X
No.371		X	X	X
No.72		X	X	X
No.372		X	X	X
Junior			X
No.51		X	X
No.95	X		X	X
No.96	X		X	X
No.97	X		X	X

As I mentioned earlier, the No.10 is the only model that is present for the whole time span. No model appeared with all four styles of medallion.

Please let me know if any of you see inconsistencies or can add any information. I wish it to be as truthful an accoun tas possible rather than a fait accompli.

Regards
Paul

You shouldn't wrestle computers, or pigs either. Bad things that way.

Originally Posted by rob streeper

You shouldn't wrestle computers, or pigs either. Bad things that way.

Or small calves! A long time ago, before I knew any better, I thought that I would bring to the ground a two month old calf in my stockyard by "swamping" it. After it had taken me for two laps of the yard I conceded defeat and let go . I subsequently realised you have to pull their legs out from under them first, because they really are quite strong and very reluctant to let you get the upper hand.

Regards
Paul

I am thinking of purchasing a Simonds 1919 catalogue from Joe Federici in the US. This is his Ebay listing:

NEW OLD STOCK: Catalogue Reprint Simonds Saws 1919 & Disston Keystone works 1876 | eBay

I should explain that I already have his catalogue, but it got water damaged when I was particularly careless with it. I wondered if anybody else was interested in purchasing either or both of these catalogues at the same time. This listing is for the two reprints of the Simonds catalogue and an 1876 Disston catalogue. The combined price with free shipping is US$22, However they are available separately for $12 and $11.50. In his listing he says to contact him for a better price if multiple copies are wanted so that is what I would do.

I have dealt with him before and he is one of the better sellers. In fact, I have bought two saws from him in the past as well as the catalogue and he is good to deal with. I should emphasise that it is a brand new reprint and not an original.

If anybody is interested, would you please express that interest here and then send me a PM so I can outline shipping costs from the US and to wherever you live in Australia. The books are cheap but you should realise, if you don't already, that the shipping ( two lots, one from the US and one inside Australia unless you live near me or somewhere I visit) will exceed the cost of the books and remember it is in US dollars. I will probably have to finalise anything inside of one month from now.

Regards
Paul

Thanks Paul, The Disston 1876 is worth having and hopefully will provide some additional information.

I have elsewhere noted that the handle of the Iconic Disston No.12 has been unashamedly copied by almost everyone including Simonds. I have mentioned before that Simonds used it on three of their models: Initially the No.4 1/2 and the No.5 and then, with the introduction of the Blue Ribbon range, the No.61.

However, there is an anomaly. These are two No.4 1/2s and a No.5

P1020735.JPGP1020738.JPGP1020737.JPG

These are two No.61s that I have:

P1020732.JPGP1020744.JPG

Here are some more No.61s I plucked off the net:

Simonds No.61 22 inch 12ppi.jpgSimonds No.61 Blue Ribbon 2.50.jpgsimonds-61 2.50. with hounds teeth. 24inch.jpgsimonds-saw-no-61 20 inch.jpgSimonds No.61 panel saw 24 inch 9ppi.jpg​

This is a bit like spot the difference, but it is that the hounds teeth ahead of the top and bottom horns are not there on my saws and about half the time they are not there on other people's saws either. That raises the question as to whether the handles are replacements, but that is unlikely for a couple of reasons: Firstly I don't think many people bothered with replacements and certainly not half the saws that are coming up: Secondly, Simonds replacement handles had no wheat carving on them.

So it looks as though some handles had the hounds teeth and some did not, but at this stage I cannot see a pattern. All the pix in the catalogues show hounds teeth.

Another anomaly (bonus comment ) is the "A" models. In the No.5 it is indistinguishable, apart from the etch, from the No.8. This is my panel saw version showing the screw pattern identical to the No.8 The last catalogue pic (1905) clearly shows the guardless saws follow the same pattern with the classic handle for all sizes. The pic of the "A" models which is the only reference I have ever found is from 1903:


P1020739.JPGP1020740.JPGP1020741.JPG


I wondered why this might be, but I suspect it is as simple as the let in handle is less fussy to fit a metal guard. The double lower curvature would be an extra complication.

I will repair the top horn with timber one day as a previous owner bogged it up and it looks like chewing gum . One day...

Regards
Paul

Paul
I just pick up a Simonds saw for $10 and it's perfectly straight! Was covered with oil and dust. The handle is a little knocked around.

I'm guessing it's a blue ribbon based on the wheat carving in the handle?

I did a light clean and sand to reveal the etching, however I can not see the model number.

I was wonder if you can identify the model based on the photos? I will be keen to hear back from you.

Cheers stew

Good pick up Stew. I wish I could buy Simonds saws for ten bucks! Trouble is there is not much opportunity for such purchases in my neck of the woods.

So, having had my little moan and viciously sawn the end off a 4 x 2 to indicate the level of my displeasure to anyone who might be looking, I am pretty certain you have picked up a No.62. My reasoning is this: The medallion is from the Simonds Saw and Steel era being 1923 to 1926. During this period only the eight Blue Ribbon models, the No.10 (now a medium width saw) and the No.10 1/2 (still full width) were made. Therefore with the hardware configuration of your saw combined with wheat carving on the grip and the flat it can only be a No.62 or a No.262.

Also if you clean up the plate further to the right there should be two more etches. One is the Simonds' steel symbol while the other is the "broadest guarantee" statement.

From the pix your saw looks deep. The No.262 was about 6" deep when measured in a line from the back to the tooth line through the medallion while the No.62 was at least 7" deep. So if your saw is 6" or more wide it is definitely the No.62.

The other saw you have there (have we seen that before) could be a No.72 or a No.8 1/2.

Regards
Paul