Thread: The Simonds Saw Story

Did I mention that information on Simonds saws was sketchy ? Yes, I may have done. There are one or two models that are completely surrounded in mystery.

The elusive No.51 is one of these enigmas. It was a top of the line Blue Ribbon saw made to run without set so intended primarily for use in seasoned hardwoods. As such it was the equivalent to Disston's ACME120 and Atkins' No.52.

The picture below is with the third era medallion, but owner Mike Merlo, told me he has two more with dollar medallions. He may well have cornered the market! His saw is a particularly good example and 10ppi.

I haven't seen the No.51 ever listed anywhere, but from the medallions it may have dated 1914 - 1920. The latter date is mentioned in Erv Schaffer's book Handsaw Makers of North America.

Simonds No.51.jpg

Regards
Paul

There is/was a very nice Simonds saw in the latest tool list from Patrick Leach.
See item MI54 here:
http://www.supertool.com/forsale/2014listoctober.html


Patrick Leach also owns a tool cabinet of a former Simonds Saw employee which you can read about here:
http://www.supertool.com/etcetera/pchest/pattern.htm

Thanks Hiroller

I hadn't seen that site before. It is a bit like Jim Bode Tools.

These are two saws he has for sale:

JimBode's No.372 8ppi rip.jpgJim Bode's No.372 Rip.jpg
Both No.372s and both rip (5 1/2ppi and 8ppi). Both for sale at US$380 and both have been for sale for a couple of years that I know of. Admittedly there are in excellent condition, but if they are overpriced they stay unsold. I don't see the point. You can buy saws in similar condition from the sharpening /restoring experts for more than $100 less if you are inclined.

I was hoping Patrick Leach might have shown us more detail of the pattern maker's tool chest, but alas, not to be.

Regards
Paul

Australian chair maker Glen Rundell visited Patrick Leach with Pete Galbert a few years ago.
You can see more photos of this chest (and plenty of others) on their blogs:
http://rundellandrundell.blogspot.co...ers-chest.html
http://www.chairnotes.blogspot.com.a...ie-heaven.html

I recently holidayed in NZ and came across this saw in the upper north island.
I first took it for a Disston #112 but then noted the Simonds medallion.
Surface rust on blade; etch intact; and a near perfect handle.
Very high polish on blade upon removing handle.
Cant find any reference to it in the 1923 catalogue.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Tony

Tony

When are you going to NZ next and can I come too?

You have scored one of the rarest Simonds saws there is: A No.4 1/2, which only appears in the 1910 catalogue! It was their top of the line saw before the introduction of the Blue Ribbon saws but is far less common.

I was recently the losing bidder on just such a saw, which I lost out on to an internet friend. Well, he was (only joking as we have become friends in fact because of that saw and converse regularly).

I have attached two pix from the 1910 catalogue. I scanned them from a photocopy, which is all I have, and the reproduction is very poor so apologies there. The difference between the two models appears to be that the No.4 1/2 is the old style where the handle sits off the saw while the No.4 was more in the modern trend of the day (a la Disston D8 ) where the handle is close coupled.

As I said the No.4 1/2 appears in the 1910 catalogue only. The No.4 is in the 1919 catalogue, but neither feature by 1923.

Excellent pick up.

Simonds 1910 catalogue No.4.5 001.jpgSimonds 1910 catalogue No.4.jpg



Regards
Paul

I recently purchased a Simonds saw with what I took to be a bodgy tote. The plate features a distinct Simonds etch, but no other information. I thought I might make up a new handle for it depending on what I found. It is a 6ppi crosscut without a stamp at the heel and the plate is 30". What do you blokes think it might be?

Simonds mystery saw plate.jpgSimonds mystery saw.jpgSimonds mystery saw etch.jpg

I'll post my thoughts on Sunday. There are no prizes for the winner: Just kudos .

Regards
Paul

Not too many ideas on this one? Not surprising really. It was too hot to even think, although it only reached 37 deg in the shed today after just over 42 deg yesterday.

I suspect that you either have to know or have a catalogue. This is from the 1919 catalogue:

Simonds No.347 Docking saw.jpg

The picture is of the metal handled saw, but as you can see below that, a timber handled version is also offered. I believe it would have had more than two saw nuts as that would not have been strong enough to attach a timber handle. I have measured the guage of the saw and it is .042" at the heel, which fits in with 18 guage quoted in the description. This is no delicate, precision made saw. It is a workhorse for use around the timber yards. The large handle is to accommodate a gloved hand in cold climates. The surprising thing is that there is no medallion.

Perhaps lumbermen weren't big on cosmetics .

The saw cleaned up well enough and the handle was refinished with a stain, three coats of oil and one of wax.

Simonds No.347 Docking saw restored 001.jpgSimonds No.347 Docking saw restored 002.jpgSimonds No.347 Docking saw restored 004.jpgSimonds No.347 Docking saw restored 005.jpg

It has been sharpened and I have a job for it tomorrow when I rescue some demolition timber.

Regards
Paul

Just continuing with the Simonds education, I made reference in a previous thread that the earliest reference to Simonds handsaws I had at the time was 1907.

I knew I had an earlier reference, but could not find it. It is in Erv Schaffer's book "Handsaw Makers of North America," and dates from 1903. This book is out of print nowadays, and is only available as a digital copy from ebay.

Simonds advertisement circa 1903. 001.jpg

The early saws were very much old style with the tote set well back from the plate. The tote featured a lamb's tongue style and the plate showed the traditional, for that era, nib. Simonds had modernised that look in just a few short years.

Despite the old fashioned look the tote had a definite finesse about it to my mind.

Regards
Paul

I am learning all the time (but not getting especially wiser ) and I now know the difference between the No.8 and the No.8 1/2 models. It is simply that the 8 1/2 had a wheat carved grip. You can see in these 1910 catalogue reproductions (my scanning technique is improving ) which I sourced recently and did not have when I posted before :

Simonds No.8 1910 catalogue.jpgSimonds 8.5 1910 catalogue.jpg

There was a dollar difference in the price of a 26" saw, but that was for a dozen! So for the princely sum of 8.5c you got a carved grip.

Simonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 001.jpgSimonds No.8.5. 3rd medallion 004.jpg

A bargain. Go for the carving every time .

Regards
Paul

Even between your earlier #8 and the later #8-1/2 there is a small loss of finesse in the handle, I think.

Would you agree?

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Even between your earlier #8 and the later #8-1/2 there is a small loss of finesse in the handle, I think.

Would you agree? l

After a quick look at each, I was going to say "yes", Paul, but then I looked longer & harder, & decided the shaping was really too close to call, if you ignore the wheaty bit. What is different, I think, is that the older saw has had a lot of use, and wear has taken away the sharper line where the sides of the grip are rounded. There is also wear along the edges in general, plus a few dings where handle has met job on the forward stroke. The overall effect is to make it look 'softer', but if the two handles had been laid side by side when new, & before carving, I reckon you'd struggle to find much difference.

The worn handle has an appeal to me that the carved & less-used handle lacks. It just begs me to pick it up so it can snuggle into my hand & get to work. I prefer it not only for its 'pre-loved' looks, but because I don't at all like carving on grips. I go to a lot of trouble to get my grips silky smooth, and that carving I would find annoying! To each his own, & if it's to go into a collection, the more decorated a tool is, the better, no doubt. However, if there's any serious sawing to be done, hand me the one on the left, please, Paul....

Cheers,

Paul and Ian

You are both right and much to observant for my liking in that you have caught me out .

The earlier, No.8 came to me with a damaged top horn and a rather rough tote in general. I decided to have a go at repairing the horn. Whilst I tried to copy the general style of Simonds saws there was some changes that occured through their 25 years of saw production. I do like the smaller grips that are designed for three fingers and not four.

In this instance I may have slimmed and lengthened the top horn and I did taper the bottom horn. I am pleased you preferred the look of my "modifications" but am slightly mortified that I have been "sprung."

The reason you didn't pick up on the repair is that my woodworking skills are only slightly above my protography skills. These pix will show the repair.

Copy of Simonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 005.jpgCopy of Simonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 001.jpg

On the subject of carved handles, which obviously Ian will hate, but I don't mind, the No.5 saws from the earlier eras exhibit some of the best and most intricate wheat carving around.

Simonds handle No.5.JPG

This is a saw I have, but has not been cleaned up yet. Certainly the carved handles from later eras such as post 1955 and the HK Porter era of Disston are disgraceful and should be burned so I am with you there Ian.

One disadvantage of the carved handles is that they don't provide much reuseable timber because of the carving, but that is the saw restorer's perspective.

Regards
Paul

Something to which I have eluded to before but needs to be emphasised is that I am a collator of information rather than the source. To that effect I draw on other people's wisdom and merely put it in one place.

I have been helped in this quest by many people: Some of them know they have helped and some are blissfully ignorant of their contribution. Many of you on the Forum have helped enormously and I hope you will continue to contribute and comment.

More recently I have stuck up a friendship with a Simonds enthusiast in the US. He is a now member of these Forums too and I know he has a handsaw puzzle to post (even if it is on a Disston ) and I think it may test us all. I certainly don't know the answer to what it is. It will be his first post and and a real beauty with which to kick off. I never cease to be amazed at the little nuances he notices in such things as tote design and variations in the etch.

Anyhow, keep looking out for Simonds and please post pix. We have had two good examples already.Tony's No.4 1/2. He hadn't quite realised what he'd found and Tim's No.8 which needed to be identified.

I just needed to point out that I can't take all the credit for the Simonds Story, even if I'd like to.

Regards
Paul