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  1. #91
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    Default Simonds 1910 (approx) Carpenters Guide

    Ok so on to the 1910 Carpenters Guide, which as I mentioned is an approximation for the date and based on the Blue Ribbon saws not appearing until the 1912 catalogue. So it could be anytime between 1907 and 1911.

    Simonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 001.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 002.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 003.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 004.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 005.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 006.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 007.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 008.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 009.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 010.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 011.jpgSimonds Carpenters guides 1910, estimated 012.jpg

    Some points to note are that the No.10 1/2 skewback does not feature (and it is not in the 1907 catalogue but it does appear in the 1910 catalogue so that could point to an earlier date than 1910), the joiners saw is there (which was a subject of some discussion a while back on the Ebay droppings thread. There was a deal of conjecture as to what it was actually used for) and interesting that the mitre saws are shown but not back saws. That could well be that this booklet is aimed at carpenters and they would have been making corner joints for mouldings and skirting etc.. No sliding compound mitre saws back then.

    Of course the object of these booklets was to get their message across to the tradesman and they probably did that very well: Excellent marketing

    I love the booklet and the impressive lineup of saws.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #92
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    Default

    One more comment was that all the booklets are 64 pages plus thicker, card cover. This is a common book size with additional pages going up in groups of eight. So the next size up would have been 72 pages, 80 pages etc...

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #93
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    i haven't read what you came up with about the joiners saw in the droppings thread. but they were sometimes called a ships carpenters saw, usually longer than the simonds model. its used for making sweeps, kerfs and cants . other makers sometimes have a back attached and is always narrower at the toe (canted) ,as a joiners saw it might be used to make coffins for example, to cut several kerfs across a wide board to bend the timber in a curve. instead of the typical diamond (wrong word but i think you know what i mean) shape coffin.

    cheers
    chippy

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Well, Paul, if you haven't already put a file to it, one stroke should tell you what it was intended for. You will probably have to send this one out. Just be sure to warn them not to try & set it...

    Cheers,
    Ian

    I gave the saw a quick tickle, in between sharpening a 4 1/2 ppi Disston D-8 rip saw. What a difference there! The file seemed to have little trouble with the teeth so that begs the question as how effective would those little teeth be cutting metal.

    I quickly ran an nail across the few teeth I had filed but that was a waste of time in that I hadn't sharpened the teeth. So totally inconclusive. Of course it may have been intended to cut thin sheet rather than solid sections.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #95
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    My understanding (from catalog or advertisement somewhere) was that the metal cutting saws were for cutting wood with metal in it (eg nails) rather than a hacksaw replacement.

  7. #96
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    Gavin

    I wasn't aware of that, but it is a distinct possibility now you mention it. A 100 year old answer to the Diablo demolition blade.

    I'm not sure how well they would saw overall with 14ppi rip and no set. I may have to sharpen mine to see for myself.....but all those teeth for 25". It has been shortened by about an inch I think. At least on the positive side that is fourteen teeth less.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #97
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    Paul,

    thank you for all your effort in photographing and posting the pages from your booklet,

    I hope you're able to get on with your other projects, sorry to have interrupted the saw sharpening,
    (the other stuff don't matter as much)

    The old catalogues and such, are a real treat to read through and as you have shown
    they often reflect the prosperity or decline of a business through its level of advertising.

    Regards

    Graham.

  9. #98
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    The Mertens saw could be a forerunner of what we called a bone saw. It was use primarily fir cutting nails. Had a blue blade with an adjustable handle. Blade just over a foot long at a guess

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Ian

    I gave the saw a quick tickle, in between sharpening a 4 1/2 ppi Disston D-8 rip saw. What a difference there! The file seemed to have little trouble with the teeth so that begs the question as how effective would those little teeth be cutting metal.

    I quickly ran an nail across the few teeth I had filed but that was a waste of time in that I hadn't sharpened the teeth. So totally inconclusive. Of course it may have been intended to cut thin sheet rather than solid sections.

    Regards
    Paul
    Paul, based on this description, I can't see this saw being meant for cutting steel under any circumstances. If you can file it as easily as you describe, it's way too soft to cut even mild steel nails, I reckon. And as you say, you'd be sweating up a storm sawing through a 4x2 with 14tpi & no set!! It certainly deepens the mystery as to just what this saw was meant to do. Small teeth do suggest metal, so how about a saw for cutting the sheet lead much loved for flashing in years past? Not sure you'd want a full-sized saw for that, but small teeth, certainly...

    Cheers,
    IW

  11. #100
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    Even cutting lead with small teeth is a pain. Lead clogs up a hacksaw in seconds.

  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiroller View Post
    Even cutting lead with small teeth is a pain. Lead clogs up a hacksaw in seconds.
    OK, that kills that idea...
    IW

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Simonds No.51 most certainly existed but again was never published in the catalogues. It was a Blue Ribbon model and was a no-set saw.

    Like Disston's 120 ACME (and their No.77) and Atkins No.52 the saw plate was made from a fractionally harder steel (allegedly) and had a very pronounced taper to the plate which enabled it to run without set. It was made for cutting seasoned hardwood only. Relying only on set for clearance in the kerf, it was unsuitable for softwoods, which tend to be more "fluffy" and green timber.

    In fact setting the teeth for those mis-guided souls who thought it might be a good idea tended to result in the teeth snapping off.

    It was made in the era when Simonds used the dollar medallions and also during the era of the manufacturing medallion.

    It was expensive. $3.00 to be precise. In fact this saw sold recently:

    Attachment 372696

    for US$432!. It is still expensive.

    This is another saw owned by the same bloke, Mike Merlo, this time with the manufacturing medallion:

    Attachment 372697

    Note that the later saw has five sawnuts compared to the earlier model with four.

    Very nice if you can get one.

    Regards
    Paul
    I just noticed a serious error in this post but too much time has elaped to correct the original.

    It should read:

    "Relying only on taper for clearance in the kerf......"

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post





    It was advertised as a 14ppi hand saw. I have never seen more than 12ppi on a hand saw. When I received it, I realised the teeth had no set and were a rip profile and that it was most likely a metal cutter. However, I cannot find anything like this in the catalogues.

    Attachment 372843

    Simonds had a hand hack saw, the No.15, but it had an adjustable handle, was made in a number of lengths and looked like this:

    Attachment 372840

    This is the two saws together for comparison:

    Attachment 372842

    Although Simonds did not officially have this saw, Disston definitely did have a similar saw. Did Simonds make this saw as a one-off or was it just not on their list? I don't know.

    I still have to try sharpening it.

    Regards
    Paul
    Hi Paul,

    I noticed this saw on eBay a while back.



    At first I thought it a home-made modification but after seeing your post above I realized that it is genuine. This one is filed crosscut strangely enough. Good thing I've got some files that are up to the task of correcting that. I like curiosities because I often find useful features in them despite the fact that many of them were dead-ends in their times.

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Disston installed their electric furnace in 1906, but I think they had their own mill before that: Just not electric powered.
    1855/62 apparently according to this at 35:00 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em9J5-LIx64

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmcgee View Post
    1855/62 apparently according to this at 35:00 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em9J5-LIx64
    That's a rather early date for an electric furnace, Paul. Siemens didn't patent the electric arc furnace until 1878, and according to Wikipedia:

    The first electric arc furnaces were developed by Paul Héroult, of France, with a commercial plant established in the United States in 1907. The Sanderson brothers formed The Sanderson Brothers steel Co. in Syracuse, New York, installing the first electric arc furnace in the U.S. This furnace is now on display at Station Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

    So even at the 1906 date, Disston were ahead of the crowd!

    Cheers,
    IW

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