Thread: Another - "How Old is my Spear & Jackson Saw?" Question

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Hi Tom. This may be sacrilegious but I find that some of my Disston backsaws have an unfortunately placed bump that "pokes" into my palm in use. When I make my own I tend to use the Blackburn Tools templates and they seem very comfy. After some previous comments of yours, I moved my S+J 60's handled backsaw up the priority list and find it to be most pleasant to use too.

That's great.
I know that all else being equal among saws, it will often come down to what feels best in our own hands when working.
I'm also sure that the height of our workbenches will contribute to the equation somewhat as well.
However, often I get the impression that the S&J backsaws from the 60's are dismissed on looks alone - they definitely lack some of the flourishes of others - but S&J were no dills, and had condensed a couple of centuries of backsaw manufacture into the hang angle and balance.
The "look" might not be for everyone, but the handling and performance I have found second to none
Tom

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

…..I know that all else being equal among saws, it will often come down to what feels best in our own hands when working.
I'm also sure that the height of our workbenches will contribute to the equation somewhat as well...…

Totally agree on point one, Tom, and if you change "somewhat" to "a lot" in point two I'll strongly agree with that too!

When I first "discovered" the effects of saw handle parameters, like where they are attached (high or low) on the plate, and the angle of the grip relative to the tooth line, I thought I had some major saw mysteries solved. I sort of had, for me, but when I tried to apply the principles universally, I very quickly discovered that personal preferences and established habits tended to trump my theory very soundly. But I'd sort of known that too. In my youth I was taught by a few people who were adamant that theirs was the "proper" way to go about the process they were showing me. Later, I saw other people do things differently & achieve the same or better results, so it was soon apparent to me that there is more than one approach to most things. I'm very accepting of the fact that what suits me or the way I go about a particular task may certainly not be the best or only way!

Let's face it, we use backsaws for minutes at a time, not hours, so I can easily understand that if the hang-angle and attachment height of a saw handle suit you to a T, the cruder shaping of the grip is pretty much irrelevant. Comfort becomes a minor consideration in that context. The fuss I go to shaping my saw handles is definitely aimed at appearance as much as function, those decorative flourishes that were dropped in the 60s serve absolutely no practical purpose. But allow me the indulgence of believing that tool handles that both look appealing & snuggle into my hand tend to connect me more intimately & encourage me to use it as skilfully as I can - never gainsay the placebo effect!

Cheers,
Ian

Yes Ian, there is definitely something to be said about the importance of appearance as well as function.
I am not immune to it either, and love the look of older generations of hand tools - more so when they also perform well.
As an example outside of handsaws, the "London Pattern" in chisel handles is one of the nicest - to my eyes - of all chisel handle designs. I have tried very hard to like them in use and found them wanting - the larger ones were particularly uncomfortable for me. I have a couple of smaller sized chisels now in London pattern, but the rest have moved on.

Getting back to my much loved Spear and Jackson backsaw handle - I actually like the shape for its simplicity, and to my eye it is elegant in curves and shaping.
There are later versions that eliminate any pretense at style, and have an oval hole for the hand - yuk! These were likely driven by a declining handsaw market and cost cutting.
Then came plastic and it was all downhill from there.
IMG_20221014_171752.jpg

To me, this handle design is the last time S&J made a serious attempt to incorporate quality with a nod to modernity.
There were handsaw handles produced at the same time which had a similar design ethic and the saws were first rate.
Everything after that was unworthy of the S&J branding in my view.

IMG_20221016_120716.jpg

Anyway, I am starting to sound like a stuck record so I'll desist in my ear bashing
Suffice to say - I like these saws a lot and have collected a few over the years.
Happy days
Tom

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

..... the "London Pattern" in chisel handles is one of the nicest - to my eyes - of all chisel handle designs. I have tried very hard to like them in use and found them wanting - the larger ones were particularly uncomfortable for me. I have a couple of smaller sized chisels now in London pattern, but the rest have moved on.......

We have some very similar tastes, Tom. Since it's your thread & you mentioned chisels first, may I continue the slight diversion? I had exactly the same reaction to 'London' pattern chisel handles - loved the look on sight, but the love faded with use. My choice in chisel handles is now very much 'minimalist', as exemplified by my butt chisel handles (which are used mostly 'in hand' & rarely struck):
Butt chisels.jpg

Though I also like the pattern used on older Btitish firmers (& used on the 'heavy' Titans)
1st lot.jpg

I did put London pattern handles on the minis for my "tiny treasures" collection, but these get used only to demonstrate that they do actually work:
3 Mortise set.jpg

OTH, I have no objections to the "London pattern" saw handle & have used it a number of times. I think it suits this 'trenching' saw I made a few years back:
pic 3.jpg

You can probably divine some deep psychological meaning from the handles in a bloke's tool collection, though in my case it isn't very deep - I just like mucking about with different woods & shapes, sticking with what appeals in looks & comfort & ditching those that don't....

Cheers, Ian

Just to be contray, I like the london pattern set I made but find crow bars with a similar shape very uncomfortable to use. Thankfully a SA company "Mummy" make round shanked versions, my favourite has a bolster on the end.....just to add a diversion to a diversion.

Tom,

I have the same S&J hand saw as you have shown, mine is the first saw I bought when I started my C&J apprenticeship in Feb 1962, I also still have my first hammer a Cheany Nailer 23oz I bought the same day but I had to replace the original handle last year when it broke pulling a 3'' nail out of hardwood,( I should have used my Estwing framing hammer or a pinch bar) I still use both tools but don't have many other tools left from that time of my working life.
My saw has the unbreakable handle, it is not a timber dowel going through the handle but a metal rod about 1.5 mm dia with a timber plug over each end, I know this because 1 plug has fallen out exposing the end of the rod, I hope this info helps.

Cheers. Rick

Thanks Rick.
I wasn't aware of the metal rod, I have always thought that it must be a dowel.
Appreciate the information.
Regards
Tom

The reinforcement of the handle is interesting. I had always thought it was a timber dowel. I checked on a few catalogues. There was mention of the non-break handles, which was reserved for the top of the line models in several catalogues:

However, this was the only description I could find:

S and J non break 1961 handsaw..jpg

It appeared in the 1961 catalogue. The picture by itself did appear in other catalogues but without describing the reinforcement method. The non-break handle was available in the top end of the back saw range too, but with no additional information. Possibly the backsaws were treated differently or a metal rod was added by an enterprising owner in the case of Rick's saw.

I have a S&J brass back saw similar to Rick and Tom's saws and it has a thin metal rod through the handle...
IMG_1920.jpg

Originally Posted by johknee

I have a S&J brass back saw similar to Rick and Tom's saws and it has a thin metal rod through the handle...
IMG_1920.jpg

Johknee

Thanks for that information. It looks as though the back saws may have had slightly different treatment, although the same principle.

Regards
Paul

Hi all. I'm not sure that is a metal rod in JK's picture. I think it is a cap. I have a couple of "unbreakables" and I always thought that they look like the flat end of a bullet.

Hmm I'm not 100% sure if they're dowels or metal rods, but here are a couple more photos.

This is the underside of my saw...
IMG_1922.jpg

And these pictures from an eBay listing.

Top of the saw
Screen Shot 2022-10-19 at 12.41.24 pm.jpg
Bottom of the saw
Screen Shot 2022-10-19 at 12.41.36 pm.jpg
The black washer on top of the saw is missing from my saw.

Originally Posted by johknee

Hmm I'm not 100% sure if they're dowels or metal rods, but here are a couple more photos.

Looks like a dowel.

Here's mine. The cap is glued in and a pin secures it.
My pin was sticking out a bit so I thought I'd 'investigate'

WP_20221019_15_15_22_Rich[1].jpgWP_20221019_15_14_56_Rich[1].jpg

There you go. Mystery solved!