Thread: Stainless steel rifflers from Lee Valley

Originally Posted by D.W.

Here's the best there is: "I have designed tools for them, which includes the Handle Maker's Rasp (despite what has been written elsewhere, and without acknowledgement of my involvement). Their forthcoming range of Plane & Joinery Floats (they have released two so far) has also been a collaboration between us, as was the Vicious Bastard (a plate rasp in a holder in the same style as used for tangless Milled File Plates)."

So what does that prove?? The point of that was to establish a modicum of credibility, given that I was a complete unknown on that forum.

Now, given that's years ago now, and I remember you have liogier bias (didn't remember the saw handle maker's thing, but now I see why so much bias there, too), you can't really expect people to remember all of your details much more clearly. Compensation or not, you have far more bias than you'd need to affect objectivity.

I don't have company bias with anyone, but I do have my biases. Toward the double iron, and if someone shows up green and badmouths George Wilson (not in reference to you, just thinking of the things that I don't wait too long to play out), I don't have much love for that, because he is a friend, and he's generous to people he really shouldn't even waste his time talking to.

A Liogier bias?? There are two (that I know of) producers of hand stitched rasps. A very limited range of Auriou rasps are available in Australia. Liogier are accessible to us reasonably easily, and there is a good relationship established. Liogier also have the additional coating available if that is what is desired.

Frankly I have no doubt there is not a struck match between the two makers in terms of quality. After all, the two men are great friends.

Bias. Pfffft.

Just because you can't find the evidence it doesn't mean that it exists and is locked up in moderation. Maybe, just maybe, it never existed, and your own biased conclusions have become fact in your mind.

Apology required.

Originally Posted by D.W.

The thing that caused the skepticism back then was how long it took to get the liogier details. The crisis was presented, the liogier thing was already there at the time it was presented, and we were to dig it out of you that there was a connection.

Complete nonsense. I was still in the throes of trying to convince Liogier that there was a demand for saw files. It wasn't until some months later that they started to be won over by my argument.

As for digging the info out of me: someone (you, I think IIRC) asked me if there would be skin in the game for me. I immediately answered that there may be if my designs were put into production. No attempt to hide anything, particularly something that had not even been discussed with Liogier.

That was me being transparent in advance just in case it came to be.

Edit: my apologies to the OP for this digression, but such outrageous and fallacious claims cannot possibly go uncontested.

I cannot, for the life of me, find anything about joel's discussion of the testing on wood central. I have a semi photographic memory, though, and am 100% certain that his response was there. Maybe I just don't understand how their search function works, I don't know.

I found an interesting point in the interim, though, that the gramercy rasps are presumably similar hardness all the way around. The coating may mean something significantly different on them (as in, they're not case hardened, they don't need to try to stretch out a thin hardened shell like one may want to do on a french rasp).

I don't know how deep the case hardening goes on the teeth on a french rasp, anyway. If that creates a significant difference, it would explain why noel would suggest his uncoated rasps last much less long than coated rasps, but that joel would instead mention that their machine couldn't do anything but wear the teeth some and actually make their rasps faster.

I'm not sure that bias is the correct word here. Bias indicates an inclination to something. I'm biased in favor of hand stitched rasps. I'm also biased in favor of clean air, water and food.

Unfair bias is another thing. Biases based on racism for example are not good.
I don't see any unfair bias on Brett's part here or anywhere else.

Stewie points out that Pakistan, and many other poorer countries, suffer the stain of grossly exploitative labor conditions. Nobody other than Stewie thought of that angle and his point is extremely well taken and should not be given short shrift.

Forget all the peripheral huff and puff, desperately seeking ANY factoid which will somehow give substance to your broader claims, even though the factoids are irrelevant to them. The fact of the matter is that you have made some very serious claims about compensation, back door marketing and bias which are entirely fictitious, and a product of your imagination or "remembered" opinions that you have morphed into facts.

I note that you haven't sent a PM to enquire what my suspicions were and still are.

Originally Posted by planemaker

I decided against purchasing those and went for the better quality rifflers. https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/AU-PYER1

Stewie;

Who or where it says better?

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

I'm pretty confident that those are not the same rifflers in the set which is for sale. The video rifflers are darker in color and have octagonal handles.

I just don't understand the price here. This is drastically cheaper than any other riffler, but yet they claim to be hand stitched.

Got hem. They are the same.

[QUOTE=FenceFurniture;1874675]With anything, especially hand made items, you get what you pay for. I'd be on the lookout for consistent stitching (tooth height)which can play havoc with deeper scratches than required.

They may well be ok, but the price is just too suspicious. USD7.50 each at a retail level means the guy who stitched them must have earned about $1-2. That tells me they come from Asia somewhere.

There's a very good reason why Auriou and Liogier don't use Stainless Steel, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is. Liogier does use surgical SS for their surgical rasps of course, so they are well versed with it, and yet continue to use tool steel for their normal range. It may be a longevity thing - a surgical rasp is used once only and then thrown out (each one is bespoke for the implant which is bespoke for the particular hip or whatever, is my understanding).

Having said all of that - crikey they're cheap! Not a whole bunch to lose there.[/QUOTE


Lets be srious. Stainless steel is better for this application.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Forget all the peripheral huff and puff, desperately seeking ANY factoid which will somehow give substance to your broader claims, even though the factoids are irrelevant to them. The fact of the matter is that you have made some very serious claims about compensation, back door marketing and bias which are entirely fictitious, and a product of your imagination or "remembered" opinions that you have morphed into facts.

I note that you haven't sent a PM to enquire what my suspicions were and still are.

I've been reading through the original file thread, and as I was back then, wondering why it was such a big deal.

I also did find the one remaining thread, I was asking where the whole file thing was leading (8/9/2013) because I had gotten a shipment of bad grobet USA and decided to get only bahco files for most things (something that has served me well, I guess technically, I am done buying files as a user of saws - I can sharpen them for the rest of my life short of flood or fire).

So presumably this arrangement with liogier had no hatching before 8/9/13, because I asked what the catch was and got no answer. I had to ask directly to get one when I did get one. That, to me is a problem. If you can't see why it is when you're positing supposedly unbiased data, then I guess I'm not surprised that you think I owe you an apology for suggesting you were compensated (in this case, it was the chance of compensation, perhaps).

I did notice that you snapped at anyone on here who didn't provide rosy praise, too. Strange for someone without bias, who would otherwise entertain dissenting discussion.

Before you had ever mentioned any connection to liogier, i had send George PM's suggesting that you were going to either be selling files or you were somehow connected to liogier, because the amount of praise they got and the strange failure of bahco to do well made no sense to me. It still doesn't. Every bahco file I have have looked at and used has been made beautifully and consistently. I still think the only real issue is they don't market something for tiny tooth saws, but such saws only present a volume problem for someone making them, and not for someone using them and sharpening them sparingly (whereas being able to touch up a rip saw often is very important for a hand tool only user).

Originally Posted by rmihai

Lets be srious. Stainless steel is better for this application.

Which application? Timber? Surely if that was the case then the two premier hand stitched rasp makers would be using SS. In particular, if what you say is correct then clearly ONE of them would have switched to SS to get the edge over the other.

Seriously.

Originally Posted by rmihai

Lets be srious. Stainless steel is better for this application.

Certain kinds of stainless would be better. Unfortunately the types of stainless steel that can be hardened to the degree necessary for a good rasp are quite expensive. I think that this factor may have driven introduction of the Sapphire range.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Which application? Timber? Surely if that was the case then the two premier hand stitched rasp makers would be using SS. In particular, if what you say is correct then clearly ONE of them would have switched to SS to get the edge over the other.

Seriously.

Are you so sure they'd readily switch to SS from case hardened stock that they've used basically for 100 years? France has a history of carbon steel use, not stainless. they would probably have to replace everything they use for hardening and tempering, as well as retrain. That's unlikely to occur unless the pakistanis literally took 90% of their business.

I can't see how that's going to happen when they can't get a stable government, and with our romantic look at paying western artisans instead of people who don't look like us and who follow a different religion.

Originally Posted by D.W.

If you can't see why it is when you're positing supposedly unbiased data, then I guess I'm not surprised that you think I owe you an apology for suggesting you were compensated (in this case, it was the chance of compensation, perhaps).

Crikey moses - go back and read the thread again - there isn't a single bit of the results that is MY data. I played no part whatsoever in the testing, except to organise it.

You are so out of order that it's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Crikey moses - go back and read the thread again - there isn't a single bit of the results that is MY data. I played no part whatsoever in the testing, except to organise it.

You are so out of order that it's ridiculous.

You are proving the point further by dismissing the idea that your bias could have some materiality.