Thread: Stainless steel rifflers from Lee Valley

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Which application? Timber? Surely if that was the case then the two premier hand stitched rasp makers would be using SS. In particular, if what you say is correct then clearly ONE of them would have switched to SS to get the edge over the other.

Seriously.

Premier in what? In price maybe. Quality doesnt equal high price. Ouuuf... What are you doing on a hand tools forum in the first place? Just think about it for a bit...

Originally Posted by rmihai

Premier in what? In price maybe. Quality doesnt equal high price. Ouuuf... What are you doing on a hand tools forum in the first place? Just think about it for a bit...

Insults do no you no credit here.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Which application? Timber? Surely if that was the case then the two premier hand stitched rasp makers would be using SS. In particular, if what you say is correct then clearly ONE of them would have switched to SS to get the edge over the other.

Seriously.

Lets speak english: timber is not an application. Wood shapping is.

Originally Posted by D.W.

..... and the strange failure of bahco to do well made no sense to me.

For god's sake man, get your facts right. I have attached the report here to save you looking. I suggest that you read and comprehend pages 3 & 4, where it clearly states that Liogier and Bahco were rated equal as an overall brand.

There is nil bias from me in that report because none of the results are from me, I collated the data from the three testers, and sent it to them for verification of my summaries BEFORE it was published.

How's that for bias eh?

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Insults do no you no credit here.

Insult sorry to what? High prices? Oh i see - the question was simply rethorical to remind the man that he started all this eith hand tools to save money, not to pay high prices. That was all.

Originally Posted by rmihai

Insult sorry to what? High prices?

This: "What are you doing on a hand tools forum in the first place?"

Originally Posted by rmihai

Insult sorry to what? High prices? Oh i see - the question was simply rethorical to remind the man that he started all this eith hand tools to save money, not to pay high prices. That was all.

¿Que?

Originally Posted by D.W.

Are you so sure they'd readily switch to SS from case hardened stock that they've used basically for 100 years? France has a history of carbon steel use, not stainless..

I neither know nor particularly care actually. I do know this (as previously stated in this thread - you musta missed that too): Liogier are very experienced in stitching SS for surgical rasps (see here for the facts), so it most definitely wouldn't be new territory for them. Surely if they thought that they could make a better rasp for wood use from SS then they would do so.

For all I know, Auriou might do surgical rasps too.

OK Folks, time out. This thread has gone way off topic, and there is no way of resolving the spat, and no point in trying to. If there is anything more posted that is off topic, I will close the thread.

Originally Posted by IanW

OK Folks, time out. This thread has gone way off topic, and there is no way of resolving the spat, and no point in trying to. If there is anything more posted that is off topic, I will close the thread.

Well, I hope not to close the thread by saying something positive.

Brett - initially, we got a lot of information elsewhere from you, and usually that leaves us trying to guess why we're getting it. I hope that my suggestion of bias is perceived far differently than "bias with the intent to mislead for personal gain". I think we all have bias, and I don't think you intend to mislead anyone, as you have stated.

By bias, what I mean is that once you develop a relationship with someone (not talking fiscally, but personal and in terms of effort expended or stake in having made a decision), it closes certain avenues that you would otherwise have no trouble going down. If I work with someone on something and they seem like reasonable upstanding folks with good intentions, but they make something that isn't good, then I would just say my opinion about it not being good in general, except that development of a relationship prevents me from doing that out of a perception of decency. Even that potential censoring is bias.

To shift this off of us and any particular examples, the biggest case of this that I can recall is Lie Nielsen pulling their product from most retailers however many years ago that was. It probably made fewer waves in australia, but in the US it took the local availability of tools away. There were a great many folks who sided with lie nielsen who had knew or worked with Tom Lie Nielsen. At the outset of the issue, they really had no ability to have an unbiased opinion about the situation, especially as many of them were going to traveling tool shows with LN. I had gotten things to test from one of the retailers (they were free), which I disclosed and said I had bias and that any of us injecting opinions were biased. The response was that LN was a nicer company so it didn't count. That's bias, but without the intent to mislead or divert.

I believe you are objective. I don't believe you've got any intent to mislead or divert, so please accept my apology on the bias if you've perceived insistence of bias as being "bias with intent to mislead for gain".

I spend a lot of time trying to differentiate between the two, and the former is natural and nothing wrong with it, the latter is at best in poor taste. I don't know of anyone in the hand tool section here who fits the latter, but when I put out feelers to check with someone I don't know well, it always goes over poorly.

(I think this is a positive post, just in case anyone could perceive it as otherwise, and I realize that I mind a good bit of stiff poking for facts a whole lot less than most, as well as having less desire for consensus to maintain dinner table atmosphere. In my mind, weak opinions, and early cessation of disagreements usually leads to ...we not much of anything, but I've come to realize that most people would rather have that than the potential for something useful)

Ian, if you perceive this as being in violation of your request, please delete my post instead of closing the thread.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I neither know nor particularly care actually. I do know this (as previously stated in this thread - you musta missed that too): Liogier are very experienced in stitching SS for surgical rasps (see here for the facts), so it most definitely wouldn't be new territory for them. Surely if they thought that they could make a better rasp for wood use from SS then they would do so.

For all I know, Auriou might do surgical rasps too.

Most surgical tools (chisels and rasps) are softer with a lower life span (there is from time to time a request for information about surplus surgical chisels that otherwise look very tidy being sold for cheap on ebay, and that's been the conclusion). I guess there is probably some need to make sure that tools roll instead of chip when they're used for surgical purposes.

Point being that I think there may be a significant difference between a stainless tool intended for people use vs. one intended to last long term in woodworking.

Hopefully, the paki rifflers are the latter, as the gramercy rasps - at least the saw one that I've got experience with - are. I've got no idea what equipment paki makers use, if they put a video of their process on youtube, we'd never be able to find it due to the language difference (sort of like it's almost impossible to find japanese tool videos unless the titles are in english). I'm curious about it, though.

My case hardening comment comes from an article on TFWW blog (perhaps liogier and auriou do this differently):

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...0about%20Rasps

Separate side comment/request - it seems to me from what I've looked at that nobody likes to provide much detail on the grain of barley or whatever the stitchers call the device they use to raise a stitch.

David Barnett on another forum had mentioned that he's stitched some of his own rasps, and that's something i could personally get into doing, but recognize that the small details of the shape of those tool tips will have an effect on the shape of the stitched tooth and thus probably have a lot to do with the difference between a raised stitch that can be used to rasp, vs. one that not only can be used, but that is nice.

I haven't seen David around anywhere, which is a shame, as he's got a lot of hands on experience making various tools.

Making a few small rasps or rifflers is something I'd do only for entertainment, so it's not critical. I don't kid myself that I'd be able to make anything close to a professional result, either. I'm just curious. I presume the rasp makers deem that a trade secret.

That is different - trust me - I sold surgical tools for many many years. Most quality surgical tools are harder with higher life span. The best ones are made from steels as Cowry X, ZDP-189, SG-2 (Super Gold No.2), HAP40 (M4), SKH-51 (M2), VG-10 and VG-1. Molybdenum Vanadium Stainless Steel（AUS-8）and Gingami No.3 are the "lowest" of the good quality surgical tools. Chrome content should be at least 7.5%.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Most surgical tools (chisels and rasps) are softer with a lower life span (there is from time to time a request for information about surplus surgical chisels that otherwise look very tidy being sold for cheap on ebay, and that's been the conclusion). I guess there is probably some need to make sure that tools roll instead of chip when they're used for surgical purposes.

Point being that I think there may be a significant difference between a stainless tool intended for people use vs. one intended to last long term in woodworking.

Hopefully, the paki rifflers are the latter, as the gramercy rasps - at least the saw one that I've got experience with - are. I've got no idea what equipment paki makers use, if they put a video of their process on youtube, we'd never be able to find it due to the language difference (sort of like it's almost impossible to find japanese tool videos unless the titles are in english). I'm curious about it, though.

My case hardening comment comes from an article on TFWW blog (perhaps liogier and auriou do this differently):

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...0about%20Rasps

Originally Posted by D.W.

Separate side comment/request - it seems to me from what I've looked at that nobody likes to provide much detail on the grain of barley or whatever the stitchers call the device they use to raise a stitch.

David Barnett on another forum had mentioned that he's stitched some of his own rasps, and that's something i could personally get into doing, but recognize that the small details of the shape of those tool tips will have an effect on the shape of the stitched tooth and thus probably have a lot to do with the difference between a raised stitch that can be used to rasp, vs. one that not only can be used, but that is nice.

I haven't seen David around anywhere, which is a shame, as he's got a lot of hands on experience making various tools.

Making a few small rasps or rifflers is something I'd do only for entertainment, so it's not critical. I don't kid myself that I'd be able to make anything close to a professional result, either. I'm just curious. I presume the rasp makers deem that a trade secret.

Jim Bode sometimes lists rasp stitchers. http://www.jimbodetools.com/Rasp-Mak...el-p35112.html, http://www.jimbodetools.com/Rare-Ras...el-p12976.html

W-1 tool steel at full hardness also works if you grind a profile similar to those pictured.