Thread: Stanley #4 Plane Iron question

Humphrey,

It sounds like you are starting out?

In response to your question the reply can be as detailed or as brief as you like, I'll try to explain that so here goes:

1. yes. sharpen the existing or get a new Stanley blade for the 112004. They will work.
The caveat is you wont be pleased you did, you might not be displeased, however I dont think its a real advancement for doing this.

2. get an aftermarket blade, that if you spend $25 on the plane, is likely to cost between 2 and 4 times the amount you paid for the plane.
You will be pleased with this as an aftermarket blade is one of the best measures to improve a vintage or (like yours) a modern plane.
Will it be a wonderful plane, likely not. But likely useable one. See this thread for some info on aftermarket blades, however Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Rob Cosman (Pinnacle IBC), Ron
Hock are a few sites to Google.

Is $25 a bargain? The reply can be as detailed or as brief as you like, I'll try to explain that so here goes........

Thats a bit facetious of me sorry. I wish I knew when I was asking this myself a few years ago what I do now. However my opinion is actually more some questions you need to answer:

What type of woodwork do you do, how serious are you, how much can you afford? Because if the answer is "I will do good amount of hand-work, I am serious, and I can afford a few useful tools".... Then you are actually better not to buy this plane and do lots of research before you commit to anything, this plane included. Buy only a small set of tools, learn to use, sharpen and maintain them. Don't get bitten by the "must buy every tool that looks like its a tool" bug.

Of course this website, and many others are very useful. To name a few others - Chris Schwarz, Lost Art Press books, Roy Underhill's website, many woodworking blogs like Dan's Shop and The Village Woodworker are helpful.

Hope this spurs an interest in research, as much as it helps answer some questions you asked. Of course this all may be way over the top from what you want or need, if so apologies.

All the best,
Nick

Originally Posted by nick_b00

Humphrey,

It sounds like you are starting out?

In response to your question the reply can be as detailed or as brief as you like, I'll try to explain that so here goes:

1. yes. sharpen the existing or get a new Stanley blade for the 112004. They will work.
The caveat is you wont be pleased you did, you might not be displeased, however I dont think its a real advancement for doing this.

2. get an aftermarket blade, that if you spend $25 on the plane, is likely to cost between 2 and 4 times the amount you paid for the plane.
You will be pleased with this as an aftermarket blade is one of the best measures to improve a vintage or (like yours) a modern plane.
Will it be a wonderful plane, likely not. But likely useable one. See this thread for some info on aftermarket blades, however Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Rob Cosman (Pinnacle IBC), Ron
Hock are a few sites to Google.

Is $25 a bargain? The reply can be as detailed or as brief as you like, I'll try to explain that so here goes........

Thats a bit facetious of me sorry. I wish I knew when I was asking this myself a few years ago what I do now. However my opinion is actually more some questions you need to answer:

What type of woodwork do you do, how serious are you, how much can you afford? Because if the answer is "I will do good amount of hand-work, I am serious, and I can afford a few useful tools".... Then you are actually better not to buy this plane and do lots of research before you commit to anything, this plane included. Buy only a small set of tools, learn to use, sharpen and maintain them. Don't get bitten by the "must buy every tool that looks like its a tool" bug.

Of course this website, and many others are very useful. To name a few others - Chris Schwarz, Lost Art Press books, Roy Underhill's website, many woodworking blogs like Dan's Shop and The Village Woodworker are helpful.

Hope this spurs an interest in research, as much as it helps answer some questions you asked. Of course this all may be way over the top from what you want or need, if so apologies.

All the best,
Nick

Thank you for the very detailed reply, Nick. Yep, I'm pretty new to woodworking - been at it for a little over a year.
I will be using this plane fairly regularly, but am very budget-limited, hence the 2nd-hand Stanley. I do small woodworking such as boxes and scale models, but am also dabbling in guitar making lately.
I already have a #4 Groz, but it's a waste of space. I figure if I get the Stanley and fettle away at it, it will be better than the Groz. Done all that I can with that one, but it still has faults that I can't rectify. ie. Short of grinding the blade on an angle, it can never be set dead square. A very poor lateral lever setup that rubs on the blade heavily, preventing it from travelling all the way left or right. (I put a slight taper on the edges of the lateral adjuster with my Dremel and got a little more travel, but not enough.) Also, the blade can't be fully withdrawn. It runs out of adjustment.
A number of other faults like a sloppy depth adjustment fork. All I need is a similar plane that works OK.

Been doing heaps of research, but always come up against a wall when it comes to cost. There's nothing I'd like better than a couple of Veritas planes, a standard smoothing and a high-angle bevel-up for the difficult grain that I often strike, but they'll have to come later. For now, a #4 and a #6 have to suffice.
For flat surfaces, I cheat and use my wide drum sander, with grit down to 240G, so it's mostly edges I'm concerned with.

An aftermarket blade sounds like it would be a good idea instead of an original Stanley as I was planning. I sort of thought that the aftermarket ones were inferior, but apparently I was mistaken.

Edit: Thanks for the link to the after-market blades thread, too.

I don't know the going price for a reasonable No.4 on fleabay, but $25 doesn't sound too high for a plane of that vintage.

I'd hold off with the aftermarket iron too (yes aftermarket irons are mostly much better than new Stanley irons). You should first try the existing iron in the plane to see what it's like and how well it holds an edge.

I note that the iron is newer than the cap-iron, so it's probably a replacement already - hopefully that's 'cause the plane is a good one and the previous owner used up the original . You should also be able to use your Groz iron in the Stanley (there's a chance the steel might be okay).

I don't think a modern Stanley "Sweethart" iron will fit a traditional Stanley (and I don't think Stanley have offered replacement "Sweethart" irons to the market yet anyway).

Good luck with your purchase - and let us know how it goes.

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

I don't know the going price for a reasonable No.4 on fleabay, but $25 doesn't sound too high for a plane of that vintage.

I'd hold off with the aftermarket iron too (yes aftermarket irons are mostly much better than new Stanley irons). You should first try the existing iron in the plane to see what it's like and how well it holds an edge.

I note that the iron is newer than the cap-iron, so it's probably a replacement already - hopefully that's 'cause the plane is a good one and the previous owner used up the original . You should also be able to use your Groz iron in the Stanley (there's a chance the steel might be okay).

I don't think a modern Stanley "Sweethart" iron will fit a traditional Stanley (and I don't think Stanley have offered replacement "Sweethart" irons to the market yet anyway).

Good luck with your purchase - and let us know how it goes.

Cheers, Vann.

Thanks for the extra info, Vann.
Yes, this plane was well-worked by the original owner, but has been sitting on a cupboard for years now. I only mentioned a replacement iron in case the original was unfit for use. I'll hold off until it arrives here.

I had to do a quick read-up on Sweetheart planes/irons. I'd heard the name and seen a Sweetheart #4, but didn't put the face to the name, if you get what I mean.
They look pretty decent and have a thick 3mm iron. Nice.
(I hadn't noticed that the iron in mine looks newer than the cap, either. Observant of you.)

The iron in my Groz plane isn't too bad, sharpens to 'scary sharp' well and holds an edge OK, but the slot is slightly off-centre, making lateral adjustment hard. (I couldn't bring myself to put an angle on the blade to compensate.)

Another bidder, a collector, jumped in at the last moment and jacked up the price to $38 instead of the $25 I expected. Pretty pointless, since it was obvious to him that although the current bid was $25, my max bid was $50 to keep people away.
He's definitely not related in any way to the seller, who I found that I know, but just did it from spite when I placed my bid, I guess. I think he was sitting back with 0 bids hoping to snipe it for $25. Such is life.
Anyway, it's mine now. It'll be here in a couple of days. The seller is dropping it in to a mutual friend's place in Sydney tomorrow morning and he's posting it on to me.

I'll update when it arrives and I've had a good look, then again when I finish 'fixing' it up. I was pleased to get this one, because apparently the quality dropped off after 1962.

Originally Posted by Humphrey9999

...

The iron in my Groz plane isn't too bad, sharpens to 'scary sharp' well and holds an edge OK, but the slot is slightly off-centre, making lateral adjustment hard. (I couldn't bring myself to put an angle on the blade to compensate.)

Another bidder, a collector, jumped in at the last moment and jacked up the price to $38 instead of the $25 I expected. Pretty pointless, since it was obvious to him that although the current bid was $25, my max bid was $50 to keep people away.

If this is ebay ... actually any auction that I know of ... no-one else knows your maximum bid except you.
All they can see is previous bids and the current amount.

Regarding adjustment of your Groz, you can use a small hammer on the blade to give it a tap-tap left/right adjustment - like a wooden or infill plane. If the lever is sticking on something, chances are you can bend it downwards to clear.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

If this is ebay ... actually any auction that I know of ... no-one else knows your maximum bid except you.
All they can see is previous bids and the current amount.

Regarding adjustment of your Groz, you can use a small hammer on the blade to give it a tap-tap left/right adjustment - like a wooden or infill plane. If the lever is sticking on something, chances are you can bend it downwards to clear.

Cheers,
Paul

That has always been the case in the past, but yesterday under the actual bid price, where it says enter a bid, it said that a $50.50 bid was necessary. I was surprised to see it and like you had never seen this before. Not at all fair and it shouldn't have been there, but it was.
At the time, the actual bidding was still at $25.
I have no idea if this is a change in their system, or if it was some kind of error, but it didn't please me at all. On reflection, maybe only I could see this. I was logged on at the time, so the eBay software knew who was viewing it.
It would normally look like this: -
New Bitmap Image.JPG
but yesterday, to me at least, it appeared to give the game away, with 'Enter $50.50 or more'.

I bent the lever as much as I could, and as mentioned, put a slight chamfer on the edges of the lateral adjuster. Tried tapping it further, but it begins to lift the blade. I'll see if I can get a clear pic.

Originally Posted by Humphrey9999

New Bitmap Image.JPG
but yesterday, to me at least, it appeared to give the game away, with 'Enter $50.50 or more'.

Yes ... it is personal to you. If you had put in a max of $30 then it would have said $30.50.
It is their way of reminding you that you have some leeway in your already lodged (max) bid vs the current bid level.

You will also see it, for example, if you are the first bidder on a $0.99 starting-bid item and you bid $5 (or $10).
The bid will become $0.99, but it will say "enter $5.50 (or $10.50) or more"

So in summary ... the system is out to screw you/us ... but that isn't one of the ways.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by Humphrey9999

That has always been the case in the past, but yesterday under the actual bid price, where it says enter a bid, it said that a $50.50 bid was necessary. I was surprised to see it and like you had never seen this before. Not at all fair and it shouldn't have been there, but it was.
At the time, the actual bidding was still at $25.
I have no idea if this is a change in their system, or if it was some kind of error, but it didn't please me at all. On reflection, maybe only I could see this. I was logged on at the time, so the eBay software knew who was viewing it.
It would normally look like this: -
New Bitmap Image.JPG
but yesterday, to me at least, it appeared to give the game away, with 'Enter $50.50 or more'.

You are the only one who can see this.
This is ebay's way of telling you, that if you want to increase your maximum bid, it must be at least the amount it indicates.
Sneaky old ebay likes to see bids go up and up as it benefits - no, not just the seller, - their end commisssion.
Cheers
SG

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

You are the only one who can see this.
This is ebay's way of telling you, that if you want to increase your maximum bid, it must be at least the amount it indicates.
Sneaky old ebay likes to see bids go up and up as it benefits - no, not just the seller, - their end commisssion.
Cheers
SG

Aha. So I wasn't purposely pushed up. Good to hear. Thanks for clearing that up guys.
Edit: It's been a very long time since I last actually bid on something. I usually only buy 'Buy It Now' items.

A pic of the lateral lever problem. Not real clear, but you can see the groove on the lever where the edge of the blade slot digs in. I'd need to grind about 1mm off the top to cure it, which wouldn't leave much meat. You can see my rough Dremel marks from chamfering.
The pivot pin is very sloppy, too, but that doesn't make a difference.
Plane Lateral Adjustment.JPG

Here's a shot with the blade removed. It's clear that the recess that the lever sits in is too shallow, causing my adjustment problem. I'd need to grind the lever to virtually nothing to cure it. The slot in the blade is off-centre, too, but not as bad as I thought - it's 0.5mm off-centre. (Just measured it with my digital caliper.)

Plane Lateral Adjuster - Side View.JPG



The real #4 that I bought yesterday, (1950s Stanley), was dropped in at my mate's place in Sydney this morning. Apparently it's in even better nick than the listing pics showed and the blade is fine, so as soon as it arrives here I'll quickly run over it and clean it up, then put the Groz away for rough work.

Originally Posted by Humphrey9999

Here's a shot with the blade removed. It's clear that the recess that the lever sits in is too shallow, causing my adjustment problem. I'd need to grind the lever to virtually nothing to cure it. The slot in the blade is off-centre, too, but not as bad as I thought - it's 0.5mm off-centre.

Plane Lateral Adjuster - Side View.JPG

No, no Humphrey - (I sound like Yes Minister)

The lateral adjustment lever is bent is all.
The front circular part - in front of the rivet - has been forced down too far. Grip the lever at the pivot with some pliers or multi grips or a little clamp, and use a flat screwdriver to lift the front part of the lever so that it clears the frog.
While you are at it, you can bend the back part of the lever upwards until it is almost straight.
This should help solve your problems.
Cheers
SG

Suggest you email your photos to Jim Davey and get his advice on a new blade, and tuning ( fettling) the plane. See his website for contact details.

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

No, no Humphrey - (I sound like Yes Minister)

The lateral adjustment lever is bent is all.
The front circular part - in front of the rivet - has been forced down too far. Grip the lever at the pivot with some pliers or multi grips or a little clamp, and use a flat screwdriver to lift the front part of the lever so that it clears the frog.
While you are at it, you can bend the back part of the lever upwards until it is almost straight.
This should help solve your problems.
Cheers
SG

I wish it would solve the problem. I had to bend it down intentionally. If I bend it up where it should be, it lifts the blade up off the frog by 1-2mm.
Even where it is now, it lifts the back of the blade slightly, but most of the blade sits flat on the frog when the lever cap is in place, provided it's clamped down nice and tight. Almost too tight - I need to use a screwdriver to release it.

I'd forgotten this and bent it up earlier, only to re-discover that part of the problem, so I bent it back down again. All this bending isn't doing the pivot rivet much good, either, it's getting looser and looser.

Originally Posted by Dengue

Suggest you email your photos to Jim Davey and get his advice on a new blade, and tuning ( fettling) the plane. See his website for contact details.

I'm not sure that it's worth the effort or cost, Dengy, now that I have the Stanley on the way. The Groz was only about $60 when I bought it.
I've slogged away with it for almost a year now. Time to step up, I feel.
Groz = lost cause?