Thread: Stanley Chisels

Another point is that none of us have enough cramps and the situation would have been worse in a busy workshop. Dovetail joints need little in the way of cramping quickly freeing the available cramps for the next job.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by eddie the eagle

Hi All,

Just a side point, while the 'London' dovetails do provide a delicate appearance, they're also fairly fragile in my experience. The front of the drawer is not attached to the side of the drawer by an awful lot of timber. Often, they break in old drawers when the drawer binds and racks.

Not a comment on anybody's work, just a comment on the really fine dovetails that are widely spaced, seeming to become more commonplace through publication on the internet and US magazines as being the accepted norm.

What do you all think - are the London dovetails an example of "form over function?"

Cheers,

eddie

Eddie...
Like this?
On my jeweller's workbench made in the 1950s
Regards,
Peter

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

On another matter I would like to comment generally if I may.
I am disappointed, that on the odd occasion on this forum, some of us take comments personally and react to them. It is always best to treat the discussion as one devoted to the merits or otherwise of the tools/techniques/timbers etc, and to try to stay objective about this.
It also doesn't matter if someone has fancier tools or whatever, we are here to share our knowledge and learn from those who have more of that than we do.
Cheers from Tele Point
SG

Here Here SG !!!

Cheers
Pops

Originally Posted by Woodwould

I hope they won't be turned away at the door if they don't bring "dovetail" chisels! Have fun!

Quite the contrary Woodwould - Derek opened his shed and home and allowed us all the privilege of using any of his tools (quite fortunate for me given I am in the middle of a dispute over some defective Japanese chisels).

regards
Anthony

Originally Posted by Blue-deviled

Have fun, remember to play nice, and to let them touch teacher's special titanium dovetail saw!

And he did much to my (restrained) delight! But there was another, very special, saw...

Thanks Derek. Your a gentleman.

Dave W.

Originally Posted by Old gunnie

And he did much to my (restrained) delight! But there was another, very special, saw...
.

Excellent, I trust there will be a photograph!

Originally Posted by Whit68

Quite the contrary Woodwould - Derek opened his shed and home and allowed us all the privilege of using any of his tools (quite fortunate for me given I am in the middle of a dispute over some defective Japanese chisels).

regards
Anthony

Glad to hear it – not the dispute over your Japanese chisels, but that everyone got to use Dereks "dovetail" chisels.

For those interested, here is a link to the dovetail workshop ...

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/h...ml#post1172416

Regards from Perth

Derek

Onya for so generously hosting that Derek.

There's a lot of generous sharing of experience and advice on this forum. I've learned heaps by asking questions and by reading the responses provided to others'.

And while I'm happy to be challenged or teased about my obsessions, like SG I do regret seeing the conversation get a bit personal on occasions.

Originally Posted by lightwood

Eddie...
Like this?
On my jeweller's workbench made in the 1950s
Regards,
Peter

Something like that, Peter. Extra pins would definitely have held the drawer together better.

The skinny few pins left in a London Pattern drawer mean that the drawer front may as well be held to the drawer side with a few dowels - the same effect as cutting a few skinny pins and asking them to hold it. When one side of the drawer binds, the other keeps on going and rips out the few London pattern pins. ie: there's not enough meat left to resist the racking forces once the glue goes.

In my opinion/experience....

CHeers,

eddie

Originally Posted by rsser

Onya for so generously hosting that Derek.

There's a lot of generous sharing of experience and advice on this forum. I've learned heaps by asking questions and by reading the responses provided to others'.

And while I'm happy to be challenged or teased about my obsessions, like SG I do regret seeing the conversation get a bit personal on occasions.

Lighten up chaps! If Derek gets all wound up and lets fly every-so-often, where's the harm? It would be more than tiresome if life was all like a vicar's tea party.

Maybe Derek would consider hosting a dovetail party on the east coast and show us lot how it's done.

Thanks Ern.

The skinny few pins left in a London Pattern drawer mean that the drawer front may as well be held to the drawer side with a few dowels - the same effect as cutting a few skinny pins and asking them to hold it. When one side of the drawer binds, the other keeps on going and rips out the few London pattern pins. ie: there's not enough meat left to resist the racking forces once the glue goes.

I was reading a piece of research that may interest others. It reached the following conclusions:

1. Adding glue to a dovetail joint increased the strength significantly.

2. The angle at which the dovetail is cut makes no difference to strength. Only unglued joints benefut from a wider angle.

3. "We can safely say, dovetail angle is simply a matter of aesthetics and personal taste".

Eddie and Peter - I would argue that the failing joint in the drawer presented is not a consequence of using London pins, but of using too few dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Thanks Ern.



I was reading a piece of research that may interest others. It reached the following conclusions:

1. Adding glue to a dovetail joint increased the strength significantly.

2. The angle at which the dovetail is cut makes no difference to strength. Only unglued joints benefut from a wider angle.

3. "We can safely say, dovetail angle is simply a matter of aesthetics and personal taste".

Eddie and Peter - I would argue that the failing joint in the drawer presented is not a consequence of using London pins, but of using too few dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,
From that very interesting article....

"All dimensions other than the included angle were kept constant. The pin and
tail profiles were identical, as would be formed on a half blind template jig.
Board width was 6", the tail piece thickness was 1/2", the pin piece thickness was
3/4", and the pitch was 1".

This test isn't describing a London pattern dovetail.
( my highlighting)

Interestingly a London pattern dovetail couldn't fail in the manner as described in that article. That is...
"All joints failed by shear along the short grain, regardless of angle, leaving
wedge-shaped sections behind in the sockets, as shown below:"

The dovetail in my bench draw joint failed, as expected...the middle pin just broke off across the end grain and is left behind in the tails. Then, or together, the bottom one failed just as those in the quoted article...sheared off along the grain as expected.
More pins and tails would certainly help ( axiomatic statement), but if there were two of those little pins, not just the one, it would be no match to one wider pin there instead. They are failing across the grain, not because they are to few, but because they are too thin.
If the concept is good, they should fail along the grain as the quoted article discusses. That's where the strength in a dovetail joint is at it's best.

I read that test as endorsing another type of dovetail all together different from a London pattern type, maybe....and discussing the angles and glue and mode of failure of their chosen favourite. That just happens to be the JIG makers preference .'quelle surprise'


Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter

Yes, the research does assess a different type of dovetail (half blind), but there is data there that may be used.

I do not disagree that a wider-than-London-Pin dovetail is preferred for strength - I said just this when I posted the picture of the drawer (half blind London Pins for show and thicker through dovetails for strength).

However I am arguing that building a drawer with too few tails is no different from building a drawer with dovetails that are too thin. I would not expect the drawer I showed to fatigue and break as as did yours ... although we will have to wait a few decades to prove this

Regards from Perth

Derek