Thread: Making do with old tools?

You have brought up a good point in that it is the perception of an individual on tools. Most of us in this hobby purchase tools because we want to use them. Learning how to get an old tool back to working order is one aspect of the hobby.

I have very often used a hand powered drill to make pilot holes.

Amen.

It's arguable that the "making do" thought is not the correct side of the coin to be looking at anyway.

The handful of modern brands which endeavour to make simply the best tool they can are astoundingly expensive. Sometimes ten times or even more the cost of an early 1900s vintage item - from a time where they were also trying for high quality "lifetime" tools.

Is a Lie Nielsen ten times better than the vintage alternative? Absolutely not. Is it 10% better? Possibly. Is it not any better at all? Also possibly. Depends who you ask. A lot of good judges hold the opinion that unpowered hand tools have not improved in functionality in any way since about 1930.

Originally Posted by goodvibes

It's arguable that the "making do" thought is not the correct side of the coin to be looking at anyway.

The handful of modern brands which endeavour to make simply the best tool they can are astoundingly expensive. Sometimes ten times or even more the cost of an early 1900s vintage item - from a time where they were also trying for high quality "lifetime" tools.

Is a Lie Nielsen ten times better than the vintage alternative? Absolutely not. Is it 10% better? Possibly. Is it not any better at all? Also possibly. Depends who you ask. A lot of good judges hold the opinion that unpowered hand tools have not improved in functionality in any way since about 1930.

Some of the tools certainly are. Some are good value. I have 4 Veritas back saws, cross cut, rip and two dovetail saws and at the time I suppose I paid $70 each. I do not think that is a lot of cash for a tool that will last generations. But $300 or more for a plane is a lot of money. Especially when there are plenty of very good alternatives. I like the new planes. I have two expensive ones and they are nice. However they are not magic. My problems are not my tools but my skill. The rebate plane does not, strictly speaking, cut rebates. I do, using it. The first few attempts at cutting rebates with it were a disaster. But I can now use the thing. And I am happy. A $300 plane would probably not make me any more so

Of course there is the practical aspect. I am not poor, but I am by no means wealthy either. I buy my tools out of my after tax income. If I can get a spokeshave for $15 why pay $150, provided it works. And prowling the markets for bargains is good sport. I am off to Tasmania for a few weeks holidays and the markets there are in grave danger.

I have a tool box of tools from when I worked in the trade as a carpenter and joiner. None of the tools have triggers or a lead hanging out of them. The best of my 8 hand saws is a Sandvic saw I got for $5.00 at a second hand place. It had a damaged plastic handle which I replaced with a wooden job. Having said that I do have 4 electric routers, an electric sander and 3 cordless drills. Even now I will take out a hand tool for some jobs.
It is not a matter of "making do", but making use of the best tool for the job.

Jim

Why do some appear happy with a little Fiesta, while others spend extra on a BMW? Surely they both get you there?

I find threads like these push a button. On the one hand I totally agree with Chook - one does not need expensive tools to do good work. Indeed, I take pleasure in using the most simple tool, such as a chisel, to do as many tasks as possible. The gratification from using handskills is beyond money.

There are, of course, crappy cheap tools that must not be confused with inexpensive tools. A Stanley #78 is an excellent fillester. A Record #778 is better, but only the user will know this. A Veritas Skew Rabbet plane is better still, however is not going to produce better work ... only make it easier to get there.

Cost is always a factor. Rating tools according to price, or suggesting that only premium tools are good enough, sends out the wrong message. It may say to some that they may as well not bother if they cannot afford the entry fee. That is nonsense. We live in an era in which some of the finest hand tools are being built, partly a result of better materials and partly a result of niche competition. However that does not invalidate what came before. For example, Stanley bench planes are superb tools on interlocked grains ... as soon as one masters the chipbreaker. However without the latter, they will not hold a candle to a HNT Gordon or a BU LN or LV with a high cutting angle.

So why spend more? I spend more because I like my tools shiny. I also appreciate the extra precision that comes with the new breed, be it chisel, plane or saw. They are not going to turn me into a better woodworker, but they do afford me another level of pleasure ... and I deeply resent those that tell me (whether directly or by inference) that they are a waste of money ... that a cheaper tool will do. Bigotry travels in both directions. Of course a cheaper tool could do, but I prefer to choose my own transport.

On a train from Yorkshire to London

Derek

Amen Derek

I depend on some really old tools. Think that they belonged to my boat-building Grandfather. No idea where his other tools went.
I have lots of new tools. Reliable and with predictable result is what I expect. My $50 Stanley POS spokeshave hangs on the wall.
My 2 Samona $15 spokeshaves are on the bench and ready to go.

Shooting is the same. All shotguns go "bang!" Hunting with a field grade Beretta is nicer to do that with a Russian (don't forget to pack the wrench and screwdrivers.)
Easy to understand where Derek is coming from (#7)

When I thought a move to some rectilinear work would be enjoyable I started by buying old chisels and planes and that started a faintly obsessive phase of rehabbing. I have to say that if I'd spent those hours in a low-paid cleaning job I'd probably now have all Veritas tools and money to spare!

But that's not pricing the value of the learning, the meditative hours doing thousands of strokes to flatten a plane blade or the satisfaction of taking a clunker to something that works.

I agree with Derek. I like my tools shiny but I also like them functional.

There is nothing like getting a new shiny tool or finding an absolute treasure at the markets that was the top of it's class in it's day. Then bringing it back to the nice shiny tool it once was.

I have strange hours, at 2am you can't start up the electron burners and work away but with a well performing hand tool be it new or old refurbished it brings me pleasure and my hobby (obsession) doesn't suffer and none of the surrounding household occupants are the wiser. (maybe the cursing when I stuff up might be a giveaway)

The bottom line being, I have or like to have the tools to do the job whether I'm up to the tools expectation or not and yes, cost does dictate part of that to me. I'm not rich nor poor but practical.

Love my obsession..oops..hobby.

There is a great deal of satisfaction in finding a good old tool and returning it to working condition. Satisfaction also in working with it to make things. Sort of double the bang for your buck. I do like shiny as well but my hand tool collection has grown to be mostly old rescued tools. That can sometimes save you money and I think mostly for me it has but sometimes I have gone slightly over budget. Could have had a couple of LNs
for what I paid for a big old Norris but we each choose our own path. The thing with old tools is you can only get them when they appear and you have to grab the oppertunity right there. So you have to buy the odd new one now and then to fill the gaps. I also have a couple of tools that were my fathers and grandfathers so I feel that working with them keeps something going. I guess they would smile at that a bit as I am only playing at it where they made a living with those tools. Most of us quote the practical and say we get whatever tools are needed to get the project done but there is a little bit more going on. I think shed is a very personal space and we each like to fill it with the tools that mean something to us.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Why do some appear happy with a little Fiesta, while others spend extra on a BMW? Surely they both get you there?

I find threads like these push a button. On the one hand I totally agree with Chook - one does not need expensive tools to do good work. Indeed, I take pleasure in using the most simple tool, such as a chisel, to do as many tasks as possible. The gratification from using handskills is beyond money.

But it's not a question of a Ford Fiesta versus a BMW. And I might add there are some pretty damned ordinary vehicles sold in the BMW range which carry a price tag 30% higher than they should for no other reason than that they are a new BMW.

Digging a little deeper on the recent discussion on the Veritas scraper plane - people who purport to have tried it side by side with the old Records, for example, are able to find very little performance difference. Perhaps a highly subjective ergonomic preference. That's not a Fiesta BMW question.

We could perhaps cheekily replace the Fiesta BMW illustration with a question. Are the current crop of high end woodwork tools a male equivalent of Manolo Blahnik shoes?

Most of us quote the practical and say we get whatever tools are needed to get the project done but there is a little bit more going on. I think shed is a very personal space and we each like to fill it with the tools that mean something to us.

So true, John.

This is the reason I never criticise The Collector and his tool Collection (that comprises multiple duplicates ... triplicates of the same tool .... I usually just send them my professional card ), or the newbie that buys up a bunch of LN planes before they know what to do with them, or the guy that would rather restore planes than use them ... the list goes on and on. We are all different, just coming together with a love of woodworking ... whatever that means to you.

What we have in our sheds creates a special world. It does for me. I spend long hours most days listening and talking to people, and then to family. The time in the shed for me is quiet contemplation, and the satisfaction of seeing something from my imagination come together in my hands.

I have far, far more tools than I need. Some I give away. Occasionally I sell something. However, many were gifts and have special memories of friends or family, and I cannot part with them for that reason.

I very much envy those who have inherited tools from family, especially grandparents or later still. I can only imagine the sense of being joined with the past. I have a Stanley #3 that was my FIL (and was responsible for my love of handtools), and a scalpel from a grandfather that has become my favourite marking knife. I do hope that, oneday, my son will discover a love of wood (in whatever form), and gain similar pleasure from these tools.

Regards from London (departing for Devon)

Derek

I find a great deal of pleasure from choosing my own weapon without fear or favour.
I like them all old, new, free, cheap or expensive. They all have a place in the world, as we all do.

Just keep working wood.....with a sharp stick if you have to.

Pete