Thread: Toothing Planes

More.

This is toothing down straight from the thickneser , sawn Mahogany , pressed on with av180 yellow glue.

Originally Posted by mic-d

And the reason for that is that sliced veneer is thin so when it is wet with glue it is limp and doesn't fight the glue. Sawn veneers are thicker and as we've said, thick veneers are more forceful when moistened so toothing them helps retain more hide glue so the initial tack is powerful enough to hold it.

Double cut (rotary sliced) veneer (when available) can be up to 2.5mm thick and lays better when toothed. It's a thickness requirement rather than based on the method of cutting the veneer.

Like auscab (and I think mic-d too), I size both sides of the veneer when hammering. Even so, some cuts will still try and curl up. In such cases, I have infinitely better success with toothed surfaces, only occasionally having to resort to veneer pins.

Here is some more of the cabinet that the veneer went on.

A variation of the toothing plane for working with veneer, is the toothing blade that may be used in a plane, such as a LA Jack, which is then used in place of a scrub or jack plane to thickness a board, or to pre-finish a surface that has interlocked grain.





That is a LV blade. Here is a link to a video made by LN ...

Toothed Blade Demonstration - YouTube

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

A variation of the toothing plane for working with veneer, is the toothing blade that may be used in a plane, such as a LA Jack, which is then used in place of a scrub or jack plane to thickness a board, or to pre-finish a surface that has interlocked grain.





That is a LV blade. Here is a link to a video made by LN ...

Toothed Blade Demonstration - YouTube

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's the wrong type of blade for toothing groundwork/veneer. See the link I included in post #7.

WW

Agreed. That is why I said it was a "variation". Different purpose.

Incidentally, LN also have a toothing blade for a scraper plane. This would come closer to the traditional toothing plane ...

Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Toothed Blades

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

WW

Agreed. That is why I said it was a "variation". Different purpose.

Why muddy the discussion on toothing surfaces for gluing by introducing blades used for an entirely different purpose?

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Incidentally, LN also have a toothing blade for a scraper plane. This would come closer to the traditional toothing plane ...

In my opinion Lee Valley's scraping plane is better than the Lie Nielsen version, but Lee Valley's serrated blade is, to my mind, too fine for preparing groundwork, so I actually use Lie Nielsen's fine blade in a Lee Valley plane.

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....

Originally Posted by Woodwould

Why muddy the discussion on toothing surfaces for gluing by introducing blades used for an entirely different purpose?



In my opinion Lee Valley's scraping plane is better than the Lie Nielsen version, but Lee Valley's serrated blade is, to my mind, too fine for preparing groundwork, so I actually use Lie Nielsen's fine blade in a Lee Valley plane.

I have thought that keying the surface created troughs and depressions in the substrate. When the veneer is hammered into place, the air in these spaces is removed creating a vacuum between the veneer and substrate, holding it in place.

My hot glue goes on clear but is quite foamy as it is expelled from between the veneer and substrate. I have always thought this foaminess resulted from air being forced into the glue under the pressure of hammering. I even hear little crackles and pops as the glue is squeezed out.

In my hands, keying the substrate certainly makes hammer veneering easier and more successful.

Originally Posted by bridger

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....

Hi Bridger

I'm not sure what a cold chisel would do My tool of choice to form the kerfs in the blade would be a small grinder, such as a Dremel or 4" with the thin cut-off blades.

Tools For Working Wood sell a Ray Iles toothing blade for a Stanley block plane. The teeth on this are more widely set than either the LV or LN. I'm not sure how this one compares. However it does demonstrate that there is a wider design range out there, and the simplicity of this blade may be a guide for trying in your own home brew.

The design appears directed at reducing tearout in interlocked grain (rather than surface prep for glueing).



"A long time ago some luthier figured out that if you cut a series of parallel grooves perpendicular to the edge on the back of a plane iron, you can plane the long-grain woods typically used in instrument-making across the wood grain, without tear-out. The grooves break up the cutting edge to a series of tiny cutters that don’t have the collective strength to lift out and tear wood ahead of the blade. The irons do leave a rough finish, but for sculpting soundboards they are just the ticket, and have been for centuries. Another side benefit is that you don’t need a fancy plane to get this performance. Ray Iles re-introduced toothing blades at the request of an English violin making school. The students, like most students the world over, were very budget conscious, and they wanted irons to fit their frugal Stanley block planes. These irons are made of carbon steel, are very easy to sharpen and are also thicker than the stock Stanley irons, so you’ll get less chatter and increased performance � all in addition to the reduced tear-out mentioned at the start of this story. Made of high carbon steel, approx. 0.10" thick. Made in England."

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by bridger

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....

Sorry, read to post #15 then posted what I thought was a pertinent comment. Didn't realise another two pages of posts existed. Good luck making your blades.

Originally Posted by auscab

Here is some more of the cabinet that the veneer went on.

Very convincing patina Rob. Nice to see work from a working shop. How long from whoa to go ?

Originally Posted by homesy135

Sorry, read to post #15 then posted what I thought was a pertinent comment. Didn't realise another two pages of posts existed. Good luck making your blades.

Ha Ha its a bugger that one homesy, Ive done the same thing a few times as well.

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

Very convincing patina Rob. Nice to see work from a working shop. How long from whoa to go ?

Hi Bill, Thanks . whoa to go ? probably about 80 to 90 hours . Its got a marble insert in the top. The client came in with the piece of marble and asked if I could build a cabinet to fit it. He was asking what style did I think would be good and we had a matching pair of Biedermeier bedside cabinets that someone else had bought in for restoration. A gorgeous pair of originals. The design was taken from them, they were half as wide as the new one. I always though it was a little bit over stretched in the width but I had the job if I could use the marble and make the cabinet fit the space the client wanted .

Rob

Originally Posted by derekcohen

"A long time ago some luthier figured out that if you cut a series of parallel grooves perpendicular to the edge on the back of a plane iron, you can plane the long-grain woods typically used in instrument-making across the wood grain, without tear-out. The grooves break up the cutting edge to a series of tiny cutters that don’t have the collective strength to lift out and tear wood ahead of the blade. The irons do leave a rough finish, but for sculpting soundboards they are just the ticket, and have been for centuries. Another side benefit is that you don’t need a fancy plane to get this performance. Ray Iles re-introduced toothing blades at the request of an English violin making school. The students, like most students the world over, were very budget conscious, and they wanted irons to fit their frugal Stanley block planes. These irons are made of carbon steel, are very easy to sharpen and are also thicker than the stock Stanley irons, so you’ll get less chatter and increased performance � all in addition to the reduced tear-out mentioned at the start of this story. Made of high carbon steel, approx. 0.10" thick. Made in England."

I came across this looking up toothing planes ... Antonio de Torres 1863 | Vintage Guitar® magazine
an aspect of ww that was completely new to me. All that thin, bent wood.
I am highly unmusical, but it was interesting thinking of the tools and saws that I have studied/thought about vs this guitar from 1863. Both obviously made to last - and to be repaired - a good lesson for today.
I don't know guitars but I get the impression this was made very simply but effectively and achieved a good result.
AND the toothing blade he used was a high-tech quality tool in his place and time.


Somewhat re the vacuum idea from Homesy ... I initially thought "yeah ..." but then ... wouldn't the vacuum effect be stronger with a pure flat surface - kinda Ian's original point - or - on porous softwoods it might not come about at all???

I haven't used hide glue or (any type of) veneer ... can it be wiggled about a bit? or is it too delicate and/or the glue is tacking up and you put it down where you need it fullstop ? I though perhaps the toothing might also work to allow a bit more movement of the veneer.

Or else, to assist the migration outwards of excess glue during the *hammering* process?
(and why isn't it called *gently persuading*? )

Cheers,
Paul