Thread: Triangular files for saws

Originally Posted by NZStu

So, where does everyone buy their saw files? I've got a few Bahco ones from Mitre 10, but their range doesn't extend to the smaller and larger sizes that I'm looking for.

I currently have a 4 1/2 tpi rip saw that needs doing, so according to the various sites I need a 7" regular taper, which I can't seem to find anywhere. I also want to redo a 14 ppi tenon that I originally sharpened with a 5" extra slim taper, which left the teeth a bit small and the gullets too big - The consenus on that seems to be that I need a 5" double extra slim taper, which I also can't find.

Bit of PITA really, but it can't be just me that's having problems here...

Hi Stu - no, you are certainly not alone - there has been a marked reduction in the choice of all types of files in the hardware stores here in Brisbane, too! The only places that have anything like a decent assortment of files are the trade tool stores, and I need a cut lunch & a full water bottle to get to the one nearest me.

As per my little rant above, corner sharpness seems to be all over the place on the 4" files I have bought over the last couple of years, so for small teeth(>12 tpi), I almost exclusively use the needle files I talked about in one of the posts above. They will give you a nice gullet on teeth up to at least 20 tpi (the smallest practical unit I can deal with!). These are readily obtainable from several mail-order places, but I get mine from Australian Jewelry supplies for a reasonable cost. A #4 cut does a nice job for sharpening, and I use the coarser #3 cut for tooth-forming.

For larger teeth, you just have to find what you can. Lie Nielsen Aust. carries a small selection of saw files. There is no magic in these recommended file sizes - sharp corners are very important on fine teeth, as you have just demonstrated, but it becomes less of a problem with larger gullets. Ideally, the file should have appropriately sharp corners to fit the gullet, with the teeth coming halfway up the file edge. That way you get even wear, & the most life out of your file. But given the number of times the average amateur sharpens, I wouldn't get too hung-up on that aspect. As long as the file extends past the tooth tips, it will do the necessary job. A too-sharp gullet is theoretically undesirable as it promotes stress-cracking, but any file that fills the gullet of a 4.5 ppi saw is unlikely to have very sharp corners, so for all practical purposes, this is not an issue, IMO.

Once you sort out the file sizes, you can start coming to grips with the real issues - establishing the rake & fleam angles that work best for you.

Happy filing........

I thought I'd bump this thread rather than start a new one, since what I want to say is very much on the topic.

Most people reading this thread will be aware that some forum members recently made a bulk purchase of some Liogiers rasps. From the comments posted so far, the recipients seem to be very happy with their purchases. What many of you may not know (I certainly didn't) is that Liogiers also make files, and I was asked if I would be interested in taking a hard look at some of their saw files. This is just a quick preview of one of their the smaller files - there will be a more complete review later, but it won't be for a couple of months, because we are going to include some other files in the comparison, & they are still on the water...

Anyway, if you have read the rest of the thread, you will have noticed that I am less than impressed by the quality of small triangular files available these days. My main gripe is the corners. A 4" double-extra-slim (DEST) file is supposed to be good for teeth sizes down to around 18tpi, but the ones available now are most certainly NOT suitable. So I was curious about this "new" brand (new only in the sense that I was ignorant of the name until informed by this forum!), and happy to take a lok at them.

A small parcel arrived a week ago, and I eagerly ripped it open to inspect the contents. My first reaction was a bit of a giggle at the dinky little handle provided - designed for the elves that come in at night to sharpen the saws, perhaps?? My personal preference is for a handle with a bulbous end, so that it fits comfortably in your hand (compare pics 1 & 2). I notice saw guru Bob Smalser favours a very similar design (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/n...oration-57366/), so great minds & all that...

However, this little file has much more to it than the handle might suggest. First thing to note is that the corners are SHARP. In pic 3, I have lined it up between a Vallorbe 150mm needle file (which I have been using for any teeth from 15 tpi to smaller), and a Nicholson 4" DEST. It's not as obvious in the pic as it is in your hand, but the corners of the Liogier file are much finer than the Grobert, and look about the same as the needle file's. The Nicholson is very 'blunt'.

So to illustrate the difference better, I cut some teeth (next post).....

I marked out a strip of 19 tpi teeth and went at them with 4 different files - as well as the needle file, the Liogier and the Nicholson, I tossed in a Grobert supplied by LV Aust as the equivalent of a 4” DEST. The results are pretty revealing, and I think these pictures demonstrate it very clearly. The Liogier cut perfect teeth (and leaves a clean surface because it is a single-cut as opposed to the double-cut needle file). The gullet is pretty much identical to that left by the needle file, and quite satisfactory. Both the Grobert & Nicholson gave an unsatisfactory result - all gullet & dinky little teeth. Worse, and this is more noticeable with the Nicholson, the corners are so irregularly cut, they repeatedly catch on the saw plate as you try to file, so it's extremely difficult to make the smooth, strokes you need to cut regular teeth, because no two strokes end up alike. Even with a fairly quick effort, the teeth cut with the Vallorbe & Liogier are reasonably accurate, because the corners on both are neat & regular and cut smoothly.

So, I am going to use these files to make & sharpen a few saws, but my impressions so far are very favourable. If they are consistently as well-cut as my samples, I think I will be stocking up on a couple of sizes of these saw files!

The "full report", when it comes, is going to have an additional aspect to it, but you'll have to wait to find out what that is......

Cheers,

Looking forward to the follow-up Ian. The last two definitely show that a workman can blame his tools occasionally. I wonder how many have been put off by a combination of poor files and lack of experience and blamed it all on the latter?
cheers,
Jim

Impressive. How extensive is their range?

We've recently been using some odd files with The Traditional Tools Group. A machete file, purportedly made by Wiltshire some years ago in the Phillippines. Parallel, not tapered. Fairly coarse but it sharpens nicely. Probably down to about 9tpi. Seems to hold an edge longer than a normal saw file. The jury is still out on them but if we can keep getting hold of them then I think they will certainly be a tool of preference for sharpening bigger saws.

I have an old dovetail saw that needs sharpening so I might need to drop the Liogier folk a message. But first where is my magnifer headset?

Cheerio,
Virg.

Ian, the Liogier files are clearly superior, excellent photos. The Grobert are a disappointment, however I believe Grobert USA source files from Switzerland AND from elsewhere - perhaps the latter is what you have. Needle files are expensive, as I guess will be the Liogier; there seem to be no details on their website unfortunately.

Keep up the good work!

Regards
Peter

Originally Posted by jimbur

Looking forward to the follow-up Ian. The last two definitely show that a workman can blame his tools occasionally. I wonder how many have been put off by a combination of poor files and lack of experience and blamed it all on the latter?

Perhaps quite a few, Jim. There are certainly lots of tools around these days that even a good workman could blame for poor work! A beginner could have made a right mess of a 16tpi saw with a file like that Nicholson I used, and put it down to their lack of skill, whereas it would have been 90% the fault of the file.

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

Ian, the Liogier files are clearly superior, excellent photos. The Grobert are a disappointment, however I believe Grobert USA source files from Switzerland AND from elsewhere - perhaps the latter is what you have. Needle files are expensive, as I guess will be the Liogier; there seem to be no details on their website unfortunately.

Peter - the Groberts I have carefully avoid giving any info on where they were made. They also seem variaable - the first lot I bought were tolerable, but the last lot are below par, so p'raps you are right & these are from "elsewhere".

As far as prices for the Liogiers go, the (landed) prices will be quite competetive, from what I've heard, and certainly less than I am paying for Swiss needle files at the moment. If they are consistently as good as the ones I have tried so far, they would be worth a little extra, anyway. For the average punter sharpening a couple of saws a month, or fewer, the cost of files should be relatively minor, I would think.


Virgil, they have a pretty good range, & certainly enough to cover down to the smallest practical tooth size, judging by what I have in my hands. Given that these files seem to have such nice corners, & are a bit sharper for the same lengths in American pattern files, you wouldn't need to keep as many sizes of file on hand to cover everything from large saws to 20tpi.

We'll keep you in the loop, but it will be a while before I can finish my own tests. I have to wait for a couple of 'specials' to arrive, which will be mid to late January, I believe. In any case, I have a few other projects on the go, atm, so it's just as well. I put this info out because another bulk purchase is being considered, and people who need some good small saw files might be interested in giving the brand a try. Collective experience is worth more than one person's opinion.....

Cheers,

This is a very informative thread, thank you Ian. I'll be watching for updates.