Thread: UNKNOWN Handplane ?

Hello Peter, and thanks for your input. I have cleaned the plane today. I hope no one thinks I have ruined it. I like my tools clean and polished. I have taken som photos of the sole. It seam to be soldered with bolts or something.
IMG_5508.jpgIMG_5509.jpg
When I was cleaning it, it looks more and more likely that this is a one of, or specialty plane. The steel is rough on the sides and the soldering bolts are grinded down quite rough some places.
The blade is hard to get out, even with the removable toe removed. I have slightly taken down the screw head to make it easier to pass.
I like your early tool, especially the woodwork. I would love to see what you make to day, if this is an embarrassment )

Here are some pictures after cleaning and polishing
IMG_5497.jpgIMG_5501.jpgIMG_5502.jpgIMG_5503.jpgIMG_5504.jpgIMG_5506.jpg

Thanks Paul. And yes, i am from Norway

Thanks for the extra pics, Govest69. Now I see why there was such a distinct line along the bottom; the sole is an extra piece attached to a channel, either for extra stiffness or weight (or both). So they began by bending the metal for the body (or with a 'found' piece of channel, then soldered on the sole, and rivetted it for good measure. If the rivets are done well on the underside, they should be hard to spot.

The 'shavings deflector' is the really intriguing component - it is very neatly fitted, as if forge-welded by someone who really knew how to do that. In fact, the whole job appears to me to be the work of someone who was far more familiar with working metal than wood.

I have only made a couple of metal planes since the shoulder plane I showed you, Govest. I started to make a new shoulder plane more than 10 years ago, but the partly cut-out bits are still languishing in a drawer. Too many other priorities. This thread describes the most ambitious plane I've built. Unfortunately, the thread has lost all of my pictures because the Forum computer had a stroke, a while back, but here is a pic of the finished plane: Brass & steel infill.jpg

If you want to see a bit of superb plane-making, and an excellent description of the process, take a look at Peter's effort. It still has all its pictures, too!

Cheers,

Interesting construction, would it be possible to take photos of the plane from the front and rear close up?
From what you have posted its hard to tell if there's channel used or just a base and sides.
The shaving deflector is certainly neatly done.
How is it held in place?
H.

Originally Posted by clear out

Interesting construction, would it be possible to take photos of the plane from the front and rear close up?
From what you have posted its hard to tell if there's channel used or just a base and sides.
The shaving deflector is certainly neatly done.
How is it held in place?
H.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by IanW

Peter, for goodness sake, take it easy! I didn't agree with Derek's original suggestion either, but I don't think it called for quite such an exaggerated response.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I hope not to take the off-topic thread that got put back on-topic once again off-topic ... but ... this 'aussie' forum had/has it all over some USA-based ones I've encountered because the tone was much more casual and supportive.
I appreciate all the 'guys' here that have contributed so much knowledge and community ... I don't think requiring permission to speculate is a fair suck of the sauce bottle.

I feel this deeply ... speculation is all I've got.

And welcome Govest ... thanks for the European (nordic?) perspective ...

Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul, and IanW
I'll try and explain and clarify it for you. I was told by someone I respect to take a deep breath, not to walk away, and to describe what happened in as non-emotive a way as possible. Most others have said just get out of there.

Paul - Keep speculating. Go for it, strong as you like!!!!!

In this case, context is everything!

I joined this forum back in 2007 I've never once posted a picture of a tool in my collection and asked for speculation or information on it.
That's just a fact. I won't ask for that kind of thing here. I have long held and strong views on that.

So I loaded up a picture of a user made rebate plane I own to show a new poster I had a similar plane, and could instantly see there was enough to make a comparison.
I tried to gently offer a counter view to Derek on that plane.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Peter, I would argue that yours is a cut down/modification as well. Yours has been (crudely in the steel, nicely in the wood) shaped like a Stanley #10 1/2 rabbet plane. The lever cap looks like it was cut down from an Stanley lever cap, and the frog/bed has been added to use this.
Derek

Derek just chose to suggest I didn't know enough about my own plane, trying to diminish the significance of the example of the tool I posted here to aid the argument he was trying to run on the Great Northern Rebate Plane.
AND so was literally telling me that I couldn't tell the difference between a scratch built plane and a re-worked plane that was in my own hands. That's what put my teeth on edge!
I've got 50 or 60, maybe more, steel or iron shoulder and rebate style planes, made plenty of them myself as well ..... and I have a pretty flash binocular microscope!

I can't see any other way of reading what he said about my plane, and why he said it in that way.

So ..... I gave him a little tickle up. Maybe a bit strong ...but .... he's pretty good at this, he will understand.

At the time I though he couldn't have so misunderstood the nature of a bench rebate plane to suggest what he did. My first reply was simple, and I though pretty straight forward and inoffensive. The plane explained itself.
I thought I would hear ... Oh yeah, a scratch built heavy bench rebate plane for narrow work ...got it.

Didn't see that subtle, but unmistakable, slap-down coming at me. ie. what would PMcB know about his own plane collection. let me tell him, and all of you ... I know more about his tools than he does.....and I'm happy to tell the new bloke, so he knows as well.

If that isn't an invitation to a reaction, I can't think of another.

Incidentally, now it can be seen to have more in common with The Great Northern Rebate Plane than even I though it might.

Cheers,
Peter

Originally Posted by Govest69

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Thanks for that!!!
That's Fantastic,
I was distracted for a while there, but back now.
I can see lead solder in there to hold it together. Rivets/screws as well.
Very nice work, done by someone who knew their way around metal.
Cheers,
Peter

Govest69

I'll go through it with some pictures. Here we go with pretty straight forward explanation about why I KNEW what was the thinking behind that Great Northern Rebate Plane.

Here are a few pictures of some (hehehe) of my rebate and shoulder planes. From all over the UK the US and my own bench.
The keen eyed folk ...remember the spot the odd one out game ??? will see one of them is a bit special.





YES ... the one with iron & wedge up in the air! The bevel is down, the blade is skewed and set at about 50 degrees. It is cast iron, slightly higher than the rest. It is unmarked, but others are know marked by C. Bayfield, Nottingham.
This is an important plane, because all the catalogues from the era show other planes of this type are bevel up. This is a very, very common pattern in wooden planes, but an extraordinarily rare thing in an un-handled metal shoulder/rebate style plane. I've bought and sold hundreds. looked in auction catalogues, original makers' catalogues, on the internet. For as long as I've been collecting and studying planes ..... they aren't seen out in the wild.

It is a sort of missing link between the style above and the BENCH REBATE style below.




These planes are handled for heavier, or prolonged use. They have a variety of features. Some have cross grain nickers, fence, depth stop etc.
Now think about Govest69's plane.
It ABSOLUTELY fits into this style of plane.
Bevel down iron- tick
Approx 45 deg bed angle - tick
Rear handle - tick
adjustable throat - tick
Steel frame - tick
double iron - tick
removable lever cap - tick

These two escapements need to be made specifically for one or the other style of plane.



In the past I've had a couple of other user made bench rebate planes that would also have been right at home in this group. They were sold to a local collector of unusual user made tools.

The scenario where a woodworker wants a bench rebate plane of the type in my picture above, with a selection of the features of those in my picture BUT with one subtle but notable difference, the narrow blade, is really not all that hard to imagine. The Stanley #10 1/2 with the adjustable throat makes a contribution to the design, the #10 makes it with the length.
Both those planes have the bench plane width to "multi-task", and do wide work ... whereas the make of my new favourite from the north, saw no value in that for his work.

That is one very interesting plane.
Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter

My apology if I said something that upset you. Never my intention to do that, ever. It seems that we both can become quite strong-minded about ideas. We really should do this over a beer instead of a forum, where communication is never presented very easily.

Anyway, the first set of photos from the OP really did strike me as a reconfigured shoulder plane, as did the first plane you posted. The new set of photos show that, if it is a reconfigured shoulder plane, there has been considerable metal work done - it is not a quick-and-dirty job, such as using infill to add structural support.

The internal steel support was difficult to see in the photo below - one just sees a steel body the width of a shoulder plane, and blades that look like shoulder plane blade (with a slot cut for a chipbreaker) ..




The new photos aid in knowing what to look for.

It would help if one knew the purpose of this plane. My thoughts were guided in part by using a shoulder plane as a scrub to hollow out a curved drawer front ...



It still looks like someone modified a shoulder plane to me. Otherwise I have not seen anything like it before - hence knowing what it is used for would help understand the construction better.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Variation on the same theme, a handled rebate plane, but made in wood.
An early US Patent plane.
A Worrall's Patent, Aug 8th 1854, Made by Union Tool Co. For Alex McBride, Louisville, Kentucky. (Not a relation ... I think)
This one is boxed up, so will get it out tomorrow. Pretty sure the other side is an open escapement to throw the shaving of the the bench.

Cheers,
Peter

My apology if I said something that upset you. Never my intention to do that, ever.

I nearly choked on my cup of tea when I read that.

Stewie;

Originally Posted by planemaker

I nearly choked on my cup of tea when I read that.

my take

strongly expressed opinion ... maybe

malicious intent ... Nah

Originally Posted by lightwood

Here are a few pictures of some (hehehe) of my rebate and shoulder planes. From all over the UK the US and my own bench.

Now there is an interesting clutch of planes.

While you describe them as shoulder / rebate planes, what I find fascinating is the presence / absence and the shape of the front bun as this (to me at least) indicates some variance in how the plane is intended to be held and consequently some subtle differences in its function.

At the risk of wondering off at a tangent, can I ask you to describe or explain what you see as the differences in the bun shape and what purposes those differences might serve. I don't have a collection which allows any sort of comparison so am truly interested in hearing your insights.

Ian, your question was directed at Peter, so I should wait for him to answer, but since I'm here, I'll put in my 2c-worth. I reckon the variations you describe are simply cosmetic on low-angle bevel-up shoulder planes - the maker's idea of what's aesthetic. When I made my shoulder-plane, I put a lot of thought into the thumb/finger grip end. It's hard to come up with something that doesn't look contrived (I didn't manage it!), and although most of the 'fancy' ones look ok, each manufacturer seemed to have a different idea of what looks 'right'.

The irony is, when used for trimming shoulders, a finger-hold doesn't seem to be at all necessary. Because you are working up against a shoulder (surprise!) you can't get a wrap-around grip on the plane, and you tend to hold it by the ends of your fingers with a rather 'delicate' grip for what is often a substantial piece of metal & wood. It's not a problem though, because you only use it to make a few slow, careful passes across the shoulder. A sharp & well-set shoulder plane with a bit of heft is a delightful thing - it easily makes the fine cuts required under it's own weight. On softer woods I sometimes wonder if mine's cutting at all, until I see the shavings coming out.

Maybe if you used it for trimming rebates, the finger/thumb grip would be more useful, but a low-pitched BU plane is not my choice for planing along the grain, too much risk of a pick-out if you hit some contrary grain. So for me, while the brass thingies on the left of Peter's line-up are more visually interesting, the plain squarish ones in the middle are probably just as functional.

I'm sure there will be other opinions......
Cheers,