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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    On a side note, I am increasingly getting annoyed by local purveyors of overseas tools, and the Veritas Micro Adjust marking gauge is a prime example of this.

    If you look on the Internet, you'll find a place in Australia that sells them, except that the bar that comes with the only Micro Adjust option here is an unmarked one (I actually went into one of their stores to check, but I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong).

    If you look on the Lee Valley site, it's like "Do you want plain, metric or imperial with that sir?": Veritas® Wheel Marking Gauges - Lee Valley Tools

    Why can't we seem to get this level of choice over here (I could understand if imperial options weren't readily available, but metric should be a no brainer?)
    A marking gauge with a graduated bar is less useful that at first appears.
    Ideally you will use the same rule for every part of a project, including setting the extension of a marking gauge.

    And especially when doing hand work, you will most often determine a dimension with reference to the mating part rather than some (arbitrary) fixed dimension.
    Also, in general a graduated bar is just another source of potential error.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

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  3. #17
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    Mar 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    ....I do have a few but I have made about a third......
    Hmmm, Derek, I count 11 on your bench. There's 11 in the pic of my gauge drawer, but that's an old picture, and I've since managed to squeeze two more littlies in, making 13. I win!

    Now 13 isn't a lucky number, is it? Fortunately I've got a couple of 'spares' in another drawer, so that's ok.

    Now for a serious response: All my gauges are user-made, which is the only reason there are so many. It's often handy to have several gauges set at different widths on a major job, or have small gauges for small stuff, but I'll be first to admit I have more than I need. When the day comes that I have to rationalise & cut back to essentials, there will be three 'standard-sized' gauges that definitely make the cut - one pin gauge, one cutting gauge and one mortise gauge (the three at the bottom left in the pic above). I might try to sneak in just one or two small gauges, depending on how much space I have, or who's watching......

    Cheers,
    IW

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Canberra
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    I might suggest another tool Ive found fantastically useful for all of my production work: Incra Trules: https://www.incra.com/measuring_marking-trules.html

    The 150mm one is used literally in every job I do. Its super quick and accurate. I often lay out everything in no time flat and its especially useful for making alignment marks on the kids furniture I make (tables, chairs, racks, cute little cupboards, dolls houses, etc).

    I'm still going to get some of those Veritas gauges though ... and two more planes... and some toothed blades... and...

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Perth, Australia
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    1,813

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    I love my Incra rules, the T-rule and a Kuru Toga 0.5mm mech pencil is just perfect.

  6. #20
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    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Hmmm, Derek, I count 11 on your bench. There's 11 in the pic of my gauge drawer, but that's an old picture, and I've since managed to squeeze two more littlies in, making 13. I win!

    Now 13 isn't a lucky number, is it? Fortunately I've got a couple of 'spares' in another drawer, so that's ok.

    Now for a serious response: All my gauges are user-made, which is the only reason there are so many. It's often handy to have several gauges set at different widths on a major job, or have small gauges for small stuff, but I'll be first to admit I have more than I need. When the day comes that I have to rationalise & cut back to essentials, there will be three 'standard-sized' gauges that definitely make the cut - one pin gauge, one cutting gauge and one mortise gauge (the three at the bottom left in the pic above). I might try to sneak in just one or two small gauges, depending on how much space I have, or who's watching......

    Cheers,
    Ian, I have more!!

    You may recall that I built Japanese-looking gauges with pin-cutters in the past ...





    These have since been refurbished to do inlay work ...





    For marking out, especially dovetails where thicknesses are important - I set the gauge for the exact thickness, then a Japanese or wheel gauge is far easier to use than the pin gauge. You cannot do this with a pin gauge ...





    You can do this with mortice chisels as well.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    p.s. 13 all?
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  7. #21
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    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    I might suggest another tool Ive found fantastically useful for all of my production work: Incra Trules: https://www.incra.com/measuring_marking-trules.html

    The 150mm one is used literally in every job I do. Its super quick and accurate. I often lay out everything in no time flat and its especially useful for making alignment marks on the kids furniture I make (tables, chairs, racks, cute little cupboards, dolls houses, etc).

    I'm still going to get some of those Veritas gauges though ... and two more planes... and some toothed blades... and...
    WP, you know I've had one of these on my shelf for over 10 years. Used it once or twice ever only. It looks a great idea, but in practice is too fiddly for me.

    In practice, also, I do not use a scale to measure much (after drawing up to life scale, which acts as a story board). Usually, I transfer dimensions with a divider, and then run them off with a cutting gauge - which is why I have so many gauges.

    Here is my current project, an apothecary chest - making a template for laying out the vertical and horizontal dividers. The complication here is that the front of the chest curves ...





    Each one of these points was marked with two dividers (no rulers) ...



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  8. #22
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    Apr 2017
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    Dandenong Ranges
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    Good point Derek. I've seen those and thought they'd be really useful but since I avoid numerical measuring whenever possible - not so much. Dividing pieces, marking pieces from other pieces, spacers and stop blocks are great, but unless it's got to fit somewhere or I need to make sure the length or width will give me enough bits then numbers have too much chance of error. Maths is good because the numbers are all on the same page but transferring them is not so good.

    Marking gauges - like almost all of my tools my marking gauge is an old one of my Dad's. It has a fixed point on one side and two on the other with the inside one on a brass slide. I haven't looked at a great deal of catalogues but the one's I've seen have mortise gauges as a separate thing. Why would you buy two when one will do the job? Well unless you can and you want to. Is there a disadvantage to having both in one gauge? etc

    And Ian, thank you for vindicating me... Ian wins!! (Even though maybe he doesn't. Time will tell or Ian and Derek will tell.)

    P.S. I'm bored cause I haven't been able to make anything for a while because root canals are evil.

  9. #23
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    Oct 2013
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    Perth, Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnb View Post
    Why would you buy two when one will do the job? Well unless you can and you want to. Is there a disadvantage to having both in one gauge? etc
    I have one with both and on more than one occasion I’ve put my thumb through the unused blade. Probably bad technique but it’s made me want for another marking gauge all the same.

  10. #24
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    Feb 2015
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    Derek,

    Are you using thin MDF to make your full scale drawings?

    Cheers Yvan

  11. #25
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    Jun 2014
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    Seattle, Washington, USA
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    Dom,

    I have three marking gauges, a pencil gauge, and a mortise gauge. All are used regularly. When marking out framework (mortise and tenon) joinery, I'll often have all of them on my bench at the same time, save the pencil gauge. I haven't yet found myself wanting another one.

    I had the Veritas double wheel for a while and it worked fine, but I ended up selling it when I got a few traditional, wooden ones.

    If that one works similarly to the Titemark gauge from Glen-Drake toolworks then it's probably a great gauge.

    Cheers,
    Luke

  12. #26
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    Mar 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnb View Post
    ...my marking gauge is an old one of my Dad's. It has a fixed point on one side and two on the other with the inside one on a brass slide.....
    Bueller beat me to it, but I had the same experience with one of those - it bit me. I suspect you'd soon get used to them & learn to keep your hand away from the points not in use, but I've seen a goodly number of old ones with the single point removed or filed off, so we're not alone, it would seem.

    For me, & this is just my preference, points rather than wheels work best on a mortise gauge. Points are far easier to start & stop at a line, as you usually wish to do when setting out the tenons in particular & they make more visible lines in long-grain (mortises & tenons are usually laid out on long grain). The latter becomes more & more important as the years roll by!

    Mortise gauges are way less common to find at flea markets, and the most common type, with the travelling point on a simple, short, dovetailed slider, is a frustrating tool to set. You get the points right and then the slider moves a bit while you are setting the stock. Less common, but far better to use, is the up-market version where the slider is operated by a long screw which keeps the point in position while you set the stock. This is my version of one: 9aa.jpg

    Because the screw is exposed when the point is wound out, they are often damaged, though rarely beyond repair. Stanley, (or more likely, someone else, originally) devised the 77 to avoid some of the problems faced by the external screw/slider design. The 77 has an 'internal' slider for the travelling point which is operated by a captured screw. I looked for one at a sensible price for years, without luck, so I made my own. This is the guts of it: 10a.jpg

    The thumbscrew remains in a fixed position as the slider moves back & forth, making it less vulnerable to damage, and when the fence/stock is locked down, it squeezes the two halves of the beam against the slider & locks everything very securely: 10.jpg

    The only disadvantage of these is they are a right pita to make. Very fussy, & took me 5 times longer to make than the other style..

    Both Derek & I have way too many gauges, because we've both discovered a long time back that it's not that hard to make a working gauge. A marking gauge is very primitive technology, and doesn't have to be covered with brass to be an effective tool. The trouble is, it's very susceptible to decoration, & once you've managed to make a couple of half-decent-looking gauges, you start thinking "I can do better than that". Before long, the damn things are breeding in every quiet corner of your shed!

    Cheers,
    IW

  13. #27
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    Apr 2017
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    Dandenong Ranges
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    Thanks for the explanation of marking gauges and putting up the pictures Ian. I'm lucky to have the tools from Dad but they are generally the only example I have of the tool type. There is so much I don't know. Still it's part of the reason I love woodworking. There will always be more to learn.

    I haven't had the trouble with my fingers but I must admit I use it as a simple marking gauge rather than for m&t. The m&t's I've done I have marked one side of the mortise and when possible cut it the width of a router bit then mark the tenon off the cut mortise. I'm still in the stage where it's important to minimise the possibility of error. Ie A beginner. I'll give it a try today- setting the mortise side that is.

    Yeah, I can see your reason for ending up with many gauges. I find myself making things pretty even though I have decided not too and that's not a character trait outside things of wood. I just put up a row of pegs inside my door to hang coats etc. I decided to make the pegs look like fingers. Started out as a plan to round the edges and make marks for the knuckles and nails but each one I spent a bit more time on and they became more like fingers as I went on. They look pretty good actually.... But they are covered by the jackets most of the time anyway

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnb View Post
    ........ I'm still in the stage where it's important to minimise the possibility of error. Ie A beginner......
    Mnb, you don't have to be a beginner to do all you can to minimise error - we all need to, even after after 50 years of woodwrking!

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #29
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvan View Post
    Derek,

    Are you using thin MDF to make your full scale drawings?

    Cheers Yvan
    Yvan, I draw onto 6mm MDF sheets. It is cheapish, and it durable - It will take being scraped if needed, a divider can leave pin marks, and a cutting gauge will leave clean lines. Later, the templates may be stored for another day.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #30
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    Perth
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    Mortise gauges are way less common to find at flea markets, and the most common type, with the travelling point on a simple, short, dovetailed slider, is a frustrating tool to set. You get the points right and then the slider moves a bit while you are setting the stock. Less common, but far better to use, is the up-market version where the slider is operated by a long screw which keeps the point in position while you set the stock
    Ian builds beautiful gauges. Just spectacular!

    The issue he points to is important, and the reason behind different mortice gauge designs.

    Here is a Kinshiro marking a mortice. Note the dual knives and that they are tightened together with the one knob ...



    One ideally marks the mortice and the tenon with the same gauge. This is fine when both lie in the same plane. Problems arise when the mortice is offset, such as when it is pushed away from the side of a stretcher, as in a table. The Kinshiro has no way of making the setting permanent ... as the gauge that Ian shows, above, can do. It is a superior cutter, but probably designed for Eastern furniture designs.

    The Veritas twin beam gauge can do this - as long as the accessory clamp is used (I cannot understand why the clamp is sold separately).

    My mortice gauge answer was to build a fixed blade with an adjustable arm ...



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

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