Needs Pictures: 0
Picture(s) thanks: 0
Results 1 to 15 of 34
Thread: Wheeler Madden and Clemson
-
14th July 2017, 01:17 AM #1
Wheeler Madden and Clemson
Wheeler Madden and Clemson made hand saws from 1853 through to 1891, although the company name varied a little during this period, until it was bought out by Disston and merged into the National Saw Company along with Woodrough & McParlin, Richardson Bros and Harvey W Peace.
However, it wasn't to give a potted history of this company that I have started this thread, but to highlight what seems to have been their signature trade mark in innovative or quirky handles.
Early handles were much like the offerings from everybody else. This is a No.8, I think from the early years as it appears as a budget model in the 1895 catalogue and sports a Holden handle.
WMC No.8.jpg
Then they produced a couple of quirky models. This is from the 1877 catalogue:
Wheeler Madden and Clemson 1877 catalogue.jpg WMC Star.jpg
The middle saw , ugly as it is, has sold for several thousand US dollars in the past (the one pictured allegedly made over US$3800) and the bottom saw looks as though it is a WMC version of the ubiquitous thumbhole saws sold by Disston, Atkins, Spear and Jackson and many others.
In 1879 WMC adopted the Holden patent handle. Devised by Joseph Holden, a Madden was in fact one of the witnesses when the patent was filed so it is probably fairly safe to surmise that they had exclusive rights. The original design as you can see included a lamb's tongue.
Holden hand saw patent.png
The 1895 catalogue, which by then had incorporated WMC under the National Saw Company banner, featured fourteen of the nineteen hand saw models using the Holden style handle. These are some of them:
WMC No.10 probably.jpg WMC No.12 probably.JPG WMC No.24.jpgWMC No.33.jpg WMC No.999.jpg WMC No.999 back.jpg WMC No.999 handle.jpg
The No.10 with the reinforcing plate, No.12, No.24, No.33 and three pix of a beautiful No.999 (it was one of a pair), which was restored by Daryl Weir. Some 999s had extensive wheat carving. This one has a lambs tongue instead. My conjecture is that it was pre-Disston ownership. Although this was a very smart saw and a highly collectible item, there were two models above it in the hierarchy.
And a couple of mine, at the least I think the sorry looking one is a WMC: The first is a No.26, which doesn't appear in my catalogue although there was a No.25 and a No.27 both exhibiting the "Standard" banner across a globe and sporting the same XLCR medallion..
P1000781.jpgP1000783.jpgP1000784.jpgP1000787.jpg
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
-
14th July 2017 01:17 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
- Join Date
- Always
- Location
- Advertising world
- Age
- 2010
- Posts
- Many
-
14th July 2017, 05:39 AM #2GOLD MEMBER
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
- Location
- Seattle, Washington, USA
- Posts
- 1,857
Cool post, Paul. I've long admired the Holden Style handle on WMC saws.
"I expect I'll get one some day", he said as he typed the web address for eBay into his browser.
Cheers,
Luke
-
14th July 2017, 07:32 AM #3
Paul,
My impression is, that after the D8 with it's stylistic and arguable functional improvements, there was a flurry of new designs for saw handles. Disston, since the introduction of the combination saws such as the No. 43 in the 1850's, patented a surprising variety of saw handle designs that in retrospect range from what I would call 'interesting' to laughably improbable. The inlet D8 was the only one that apparently caught on in the market. The Regan style handle ended up on the D8 as the thumbhole version, it apparently didn't sell as well as the standard handles on backsaws.
The other makers also patented saw handle designs but again, none of them apparently were very popular.
I get the feeling that most of these innovative handles really didn't contribute much functionality to the saws on which they appeared; they were simply different for differences sake.
Regards,
RobInnovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
-
14th July 2017, 08:26 AM #4
Hear Hear! I get the impression there was some pretty fierce competition for market share amongst those mid to late century sawmakers. As far as doing the job, there was probably not that much difference, so they were looking for anything that might attract a buyer's attention, whether it added to usefulness or not. You could draw parallels with the phones & tablets being peddled in their millions today.....
Cheers,IW
-
14th July 2017, 08:59 AM #5
Ian,
I was thinking of my iPhone as I was finishing the above post but didn't want to dribble on.
Cheers,
RobInnovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
-
14th July 2017, 09:28 AM #6
I would agree with all of your comments. In marketing it is a definite advantage to establish a point of difference. This is to establish easy identification or to have some benefit. ideally it will be both. The giant Disston company was famous for it's marketing prowess, it's patents (possibly more prolific than any in this regard), it's fiercely protective stance for what today would be called intellectual property and some saws . There was a huge emergence of hand saw makers in North America during the mid nineteenth centry and they were all striving for market share. Disston bought out a good many of them. (I have just realised I have paraphrased Ian's comment so disregard this if you have not already read it).
Luke, you will find a few WMCs on the net, but most, including a couple in Oz, are unrealistically priced and have been lurking for a considerable time.
I actually think the Holden handle is easier and more practical to use than the thumbhole. I have had more than one thumbhole saw where I have had to enlarge the hole so my thumb would fit comfortably and I have a hand that is only fractionally larger than average. (I have another hand and that is almost identical, but a mirror image ). I know that size wise we have grown larger in the last 150 years but I would have thought that the hands of a carpenter would develop to be fairly beefy. The Holden handle open thumbhole is not so restrictive.
There is another practical manufacturing aspect in that the Holden handle is used on all the WMC saws for any given model including crosscuts and panel saws. The thumbhole saws by Disston and others were usually reserved for rip saws meaning that this was yet another model in the arsenal of handles. You could get crosscuts with a thumbhole as I have at least one in stock, but they may have been a special request. Thumbhole saws also seemed to be designed for right handers whereas the Holden pattern will suit either hand. When I think about that, it wasn't an issue as everybody was right handed in those days!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
-
14th July 2017, 09:33 AM #7
Never felt the need to use both hands for ripping, too much possibility for kinking, particularly on a 0.03X" plate.
I've seen a single example of a left-handed Regan handle but never a southpaw D8, D100 or Acme120 rip.Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
-
14th July 2017, 11:06 AM #8
Rob
That's interesting that you have seen a left handed version. I do wonder if it was original as even between the two world wars a child exhibiting left handed tendencies was vigorously encouraged to discontinue that preference. Of course, go back a few hundred years and you would have been stoned to death or burnt at the stake, but thumbhole, Reagan and Holden handles were not around then.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
-
14th July 2017, 11:14 AM #9
Paul,
Yes, it was on a No. 9 gauge saw of the same size as that I own, very certainly original as a RH Regan would become too weak in the region of the thumb slot if it were converted to a lefty. It was for sale on eBay a number of years ago.
Regards,
RobInnovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
-
14th July 2017, 06:39 PM #10
And long after, Paul! My elder sister is a southpaw, & started school after WW2. She was forced to 'convert' and it wasn't til late primary-school that she was left to write with whichever hand she chose, by which time it didn't seem to matter much to her which hand she used. I was 3 years behind, and by that time, enlightenment was dawning, so the lefties in my class were tolerated (though often ridiculed by at least one teacher that I remember). It was a bit of a disadvantage when writing on those wretched slates we used in the earlier grades, hard enough not to smudge things even for right-handers (a crime which would earn you a goodly rap over the knuckles!). P'raps I empathised more with them more than most, being a colour-blind person in a world which takes no account of the fact that 10% of males struggle to differentiate between red & green.
Cheers,IW
-
11th August 2017, 01:29 AM #11SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- victor harbor sa
- Posts
- 316
Hi Paul,
very interesting thread that you started about saw marketing and efforts the manufacturers went to, to flog their saws.
I finally have something to add, it's a 26" hand saw with a 'holden' type handle, 8 ppi
but there is no medalion or etch to say who made it though.
Unfortunately one or more idiots have done a really poor job of filing and setting the teeth,
and used the saw blade to test out one of their hammers.
Regards
Graham.
-
11th August 2017, 03:14 AM #12
-
9th December 2017, 01:10 PM #13
I have been making up a saw from parts (to be the subject of a future thread) and was in the process of reviewing the style of handle I would make. Just from sheer quirkiness I like the Holden pattern, although my belief is that Atkins' "Perfection" handle is unsurpassed for comfort. However, that is a very subjective standpoint and everybody would have their own opinion.
To return to the build saw, I was concerned the handle would be too large and when I was starting the side plates thread I did come across this WMC saw from the pile (or more likely made by WMC for somebody else) in a sorry state, but also a little mystifying in that it had raised saw nuts, a little bit cone head style and seemed to be missing a medallion in the cutout that was there.
P1030093.JPGP1030094.JPGP1030095.JPG
Then screws themselves seem to be a combination in that they reflect the Glover patent, but with the Munger shaft thickness. There is a good amount of thread on the shaft and it is held well although the shafts are slightly bent in each saw screw. The screw in the medallion position had a brass washer beneath it but smaller than the timber cutout. It could have been a later addition:
P1030096.JPGP1030097.JPG
They clean up quite nicely and there is a very slight pattern to the head of the nut:
P1030098.JPGP1030099.JPGP1030100.JPG
The saw screws are all the same.
The saw plate is a piece of rubbish (almost sharpened away and bent) so that will go in the waste basket probably, but the handle is good and I am quite taken by the saw screws . It did occur to me that this may have been one of the saws that had a side plate as these screws would suit that construction, but there is no evidence on the handle of this. Alternatively I wondered if originally there was a large brass washer in the medallion position.
It also turned out that this handle is larger than the one I am making, which really surprised me. Initially I thought it was an Apple handle but closer inspection showed it to be Beech.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Paul
Edit: I have just realised that I did previously post a pic of this sorry saw. On reflection I am surprised I did that. I must have been a little short on material for pix .Bushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
-
9th December 2017, 09:38 PM #14
Pics
Are not showing up for me Paul??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
9th December 2017, 11:43 PM #15
Matt
They are showing for me, although from time to time I have had trouble in the past. Also I uploaded them to the post via the toolbar bar above and I am led to believe this is the preferred method to enable viewing on a mobile phone.
Perhaps the mods can check and see if I have loaded them incorrectly. Thanks
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
Similar Threads
-
Interesting Wheeler Madden Clemson
By schuld66 in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWEREDReplies: 26Last Post: 11th June 2020, 08:10 AM -
My 22 Wheeler finished.
By munruben in forum SCALE MODELLINGReplies: 22Last Post: 11th July 2011, 08:41 AM -
Fifth Wheeler
By Jim Carroll in forum TRAILERS & OTHER FABRICATED STUFFReplies: 5Last Post: 15th August 2010, 09:13 AM