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  1. #1
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    Default When To Go All The Way

    A topic that has been nagging in the back of my mind recently is the extent to which restoration is undertaken on hand saws. I know a number of collectors, some of them good friends, who feel that a saw should be left absolutely as it is found. I don't subscribe to this position completely.

    However, I can see that there are times when a hand saw should be retained in the state it is acquired. In fact I recently met up with Luke Maddox, who very kindly brought along some of his saw collection. There were his user saws and also his treasured, ancient saws and it was those saws that arguably fall into the untouchable category. I don't have any saws like that so I am hoping he can find the time to post some pix of his saws for us. They typify exactly what I am trying to say.

    The other category, with which I primarily occupy myself, are the saws that will become restoration projects. My justification for this is that as they are they are unusable, unattractive and quite possibly unrecogniseable.

    To illustrate this I have a restoration in progress on a Simonds No.8A, which fits the bill pretty well. However, pretty it was not:

    Simonds No.8A 001.jpgSimonds No.8A 002.jpgSimonds No.8A 003.jpgSimonds No.8A 005.jpgSimonds No.8A 006.jpgSimonds No.8A 007.jpgSimonds No.8A 008.jpg

    It was a sad case. The saw plate was extremely dark with a poor etch, it had a badly damaged top horn and other cracks in the handle as well as a missing saw nut.

    The reason I was keen to restore this saw was that, along with some other Simonds saws that I have, it does not appear in any of the Simonds catalogues. It is an 8A and the "A" signifies that it has a metal protector covering the lower guard. None of the "A" models appeared in the catalogues.

    I hadn't appreciated that the protector was brass.

    My contention is that without restoration this saw just looks like a piece of junk. I am hoping I can rectify that and make it into a silk purse: Well just a manly wallet will do.

    Think of a vintage car. Is it more valuable as a defunct wreck or a working restoration (faithful of course) ?

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Hi Paul,

    I've been reading about conservation techniques. The Smithsonian Institute has a very nice page (Museum Conservation Institute Home Page) and there are links to other organizations similar in vein.

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  4. #3
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    Hi Paul,

    I feel like that Simond's is a prime example of when to go all the way. As you say, it was in a condition that was undesirable by almost anyone's standards, but it has potential to be a manly, silky wallet. While many people place value on patina, brass tarnish, name stamps, etc. etc., I don't think anyone places value on the "neglected rustbucket" aesthetic , so you're turning something of almost negligible value into something really great. The choice is simple!

    I'll be glad to post some photos of my old saws. I'll include a bit of backstory as well. I just need to take the photos, which may be tomorrow or Sunday.

    Til then,
    Luke

  5. #4
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    I kind of feel like I'm hijacking this thread just to show off my saws... but you asked, and I can never pass up an opportunity to ramble about my favorite saws!

    I consider myself a borderline serious collector of Disston saws, but I would say I'm definitely a very, very picky one. I like them old, and I like the handles to be in good shape with no replacement chunks of wood. I also shy away from anything that looks like it has been filed to death, and I love a nice, original finish. As such, my "serious" collection is, in fact, very small.

    I guess I'll go in chronological order.

    The first saw is my personal favorite. It's a 28" 4.5ppi rip profile #7 from the early 1850s, possibly late 1840s (a man can dream...). Progressive toothing at the front. Nice, quartersawn Beech handle. This one hasn't been touched. Aside from that damage to the tip of the plate and a small chip off of the underside of the top horn, it's pretty fantastic. Lots of original finish. This was made before they introduced etching, so it has the "inchworm" logo stamped into the blade. Note, that it doesn't say Henry Disston and Son(s), but just Henry Disston. I like to think that the man himself may well have handled this one for QA/QC .

    IMG_0114.jpgIMG_0115.jpgIMG_0116.jpgIMG_0117.jpg

    Moving forward is my 26", 10ppi, crosscut profile #8. I bought this one without seeing it in person, and was extremely excited about it. It's from the early to mid 1860's, which was the timeframe during which we were fighting our civil war in the U.S., so I feel like things made during that period are just a bit special. I guess maybe it's just me... I knew that the upper horn had been worn, obviously, but the seller didn't make me aware that he had reapplied the finish to the handle . It's still a pretty nice piece of apple, but it looks like the finish was an oil blend that was hastily applied, possibly over an existing tarnish, and in fewer coats than it should've had, then wrapped in bubble wrap before it had fully cured. All in all it's still a good saw. This was when the etching came about so, unfortunately, it's not there anymore. Still pre-"and Sons" on the medallion. Again, I haven't touched this one.

    IMG_0118.jpgIMG_0119.jpgIMG_0120.jpg

    Jump forward ten years(ish). This is a 26" 10ppi crosscut profile #7. This one is a close second in my favorites list. It would've been made between 1871 and 1876, likely closer to 1871. I say this because, in 1871, the company began including the second of Henry's sons in its title/medallions, yet this saw still indicates only one son in the etch. I think it's safe to say that they had an abundance of saw plates from earlier times, so when they changed the medallion they needed to use it up. This was also the last timeframe during which they used split sawnuts. Arguably my favorite part is the fantastic Beech handle with the medullary rays. I feel like this indicates a significant attention to detail which was not necessarily present in the later saws (or maybe just a big stack of above-average quartersawn beech...). This one has been filed about as much as I like to see, personally, on a collectible saw. I did make one modification on this saw. I took it to IanW's place and we used his split nut driver (which I don't have) to rotate the medallion. Out of whack medallions is a huge pet peeve of mine. Otherwise untouched.

    IMG_0121.jpgIMG_0122.jpgIMG_0123.jpgIMG_0124.jpgIMG_0125.jpg

    The last two are my "users", although I'm considering retiring them soon and replacing them with newer, less rare versions of themselves. First up is my 28", 5ppi rip profile D8. This one is from the 1880s or early 1890s, as indicated by the medallion which does not include the "string of pearls" around the keystone. It also has the etch which became the norm for many years leading up to and following the turn of the 20th century. Of all my saws, this one is in the best shape. It's virtually perfect. Width-wise it looks like it has almost never been filed, it is missing a negligible amount of the original finish, and the etch is almost all there, and you can actually feel it with your fingernail in parts. I couldn't get a great photo of the etch, unfortunately.

    IMG_0132.jpgIMG_0133.jpgIMG_0134.jpgIMG_0135.jpg

    I deliberately saved this one for last, because it is a prime example of when I DID go all the way. This is a 26" 8ppi crosscut profile D8 from the same era as the previous saw. This was the first Disston saw I bought, and it had been neglected. The finish was all faded, and there was a considerable amount of rust on the plate. I overhauled it to the point of removing the handle, polishing the brass, sanding (p80 - p400) off the tarnish on the wood, then applying numerous oil coats and finally waxing it. I use this saw more than any other and absolutely love it. I almost infallibly cut to length before ripping or planing, so this is often the first tool which meets wood in my shop. You know how people have that one sentimental saw that was their "father/grandfather/great grandfather's saw"? I hope this one is remembered as "Luke's saw". I think that, given what I know now, I would still have gone all the way. It needed it. Luckily, although it had been neglected, it had not been abused. The handle is perfectly intact and the plate still has several filings left in it before it ends up as decoration.

    IMG_0136.jpgIMG_0137.jpgIMG_0138.jpg

    Hope that helps illustrate your point, Paul. Sorry the post got so long... As indicated by my overstaying of my visit at your house by two hours, I tend to get overly excited about old tools

    Cheers,
    Luke
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #5
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    Luke

    That post was just perfect and exactly what I hoped you would present. It absolutely epitomises where a collector can leave well alone.

    Such desireable saws too. Having seen them in the flesh I can assure anybody reading this thread, that they are at least as good as they look here if not better. I have to say I just love those sunken medallions especially with the eagle in flight.

    Oh! I think I just dribbled .

    Thank you.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #6
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    Well, the restoration is coming along. The saw plate came up reasonably but with some staining still present. At least it is no longer black.


    Attachment 370811Attachment 370812Attachment 370813Attachment 370814

    I forgot to mention that this saw also has a hardware etch, which was very hard to see. The Simonds etch is an early one featuring outline only. Later saws had a shaded background to the banner.

    The handle presented a little more of a problem particularly with that horn. Here it is cleaned up, but the horn in slithers. The splits have been glued and the horn "dealt with."

    Attachment 370818Attachment 370815Attachment 370816Attachment 370817

    It is currently drying having received a coat of BLO. In a couple of days it may be ready to varnish. There again it may not be ready as we have had rainy, cloudy days, which are not conducive to drying, particularly in my three sided shed .

    Regards
    Paul
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #7
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    The handle still has to be varnished:

    Simonds No.8A 018.jpgSimonds No.8A 017.jpg

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #8
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    Apologies for post #6. Something went wrong with the attachments and I was planning to reload them, but work intervened and now the facility to edit is no longer there. The pix are at the foot of the post: Just not in the best position.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
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    For me the handle on this saw was always going to be the major stumbling block. The first issue is that I have no Apple wood to make repairs. Actually that's not quite true as I have old handles and if only a small piece of wood is required I can salvage a piece from those.

    However, normally the main damage is to the top horn, as with this 8A, and a chunk of wood larger then I can salvage from an old handle is needed. The restriction is grain orientation. If that were not critical it would not be a big problem.

    I have recently found that White/Grey Box (they are pretty much indistinguishable from each other except under a microscope in the laboratory and they hybridise as well) seems to have a similar look although vastly different density to Apple and I am experimenting with that. This is an early Crescent Moon (pre-1906) Simonds No.4 1/2 that received that treatment:

    Handle repairs 006.jpgHandle repairs 005.jpg

    I am not convinced that this handle is apple, although it should be. It seems more like Beech. Consequently even allowing for colour difference, the match is not good. I was philosophical about this saw as it was in a terrible state when first acquired and almost anything was an exponential improvement.

    This next saw, a No.8 from the crescent moon medallion period, had no top horn and in this instance I salvaged some Apple from another handle:

    Handle repairs 003.jpgHandle repairs 002.jpg

    This last repair is a "chip" on a Disston No.12 More successful in terms of colour match, but still very visible:

    Handle repairs 007.jpgHandle repairs 004.jpg


    Now to the 8A, which I did none of those things to, but re glued the slithers and bogged up the gaps with a mixture of glue and sawdust. I reasoned that I would try this first and if I couldn't live with the result I could still chop off the horn and fashion a new piece.

    The production of sawdust was not without it's issues. I ripped first with one of Ian Wilkie's saws, but it did too good a job as it produced curly slithers that were much too coarse. So I tried a ROS, but was unable to easily catch the dust. Lastly I resorted to a hand sanding block with 80 grit paper.

    Simonds No.8A CM 001.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 003.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 004.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 008.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 009.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 010.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 011.jpg

    Not perfect by a long stretch, but it will have to do for now as I have too many other projects on the go. I may revisit it at a later date. The saw still has to be sharpened. I will have to be careful there as when I was cleaning the saw plate I noticed a very small crack in the tooth line towards the toe.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #10
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    Some restorations go better than others:

    Copy of Calendar saw No.61 001.jpgCopy of Calendar saw No.61 002.jpgCopy of Calendar saw No.61 003.jpg

    A lot depends on what you start with .

    Regards
    paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #11
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    Looks like a great restoration job, Paul. All spiffed up for many more decades of sawing.

    Well done.

    Cheers,
    Luke

  13. #12
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    Hello Paul,

    nice restoration job on he No. 8A, the handle came up looking good.

    Sometimes the damage to the horns can be quite difficult to repair.

    I've have had similar damage to saw handles over here and have followed
    with much the same method, using saw dust from the dust bag of my
    belt sander after sanding some timber of a similar colour.

    I've also had success using fiberglass resin (bog) coloured with either
    coloured pigment or wood stain.

    It adheres to the wood and sets really hard, it can be filed and sanded easily to shape, and accepts
    finishes readily.

    It may not be a traditional method but it works well, and easily produces good results,
    that blend in with the rest of the handle.

    Keep up the good work

    Graham

  14. #13
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    The primary problem with any sort of bog or glue mix is that it does not absorb the same as the raw timber. It doesn't absorb oil and it doesn't absorb the final finish (varnish, shellac etc) in the same way as timber.

    It requires lots of experimentation on scrap pieces of the same timber to match up for a final result. Very time consuming.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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