Thread: New wooden double iron plane maker

I dont quite follow the notion that double iron woodies are that much harder to make than single iron woodies. I started off making double iron woodies at your york pitch, then progressed onto making single iron woodies up to 55 and 60 degrees. Then I moved on to making Toothing Planes at an even higher bed angle. My last foray into plane making was producing traditional boxed chamfer planes. Comparing complexity of skill, wooden bench planes (either double or single iron) rate much further down the scale complexity compared to the work involved in these chamfer planes.

As for Steve Voight. I wish him all the very best of luck with the plane making work he is doing. I just think he will battle to sell his work with a starting price of $385.00(usa).
The key market for woodworking hand tools is no longer the domain of the professional craftsman, but that of the weekend woodworker. Are they willing to move away from the security of their metal soled planes for a woodie. I suggest the odds are against that occurring if they keep listening to professional tool reviewers such as Derek & Chris Schwarz who continually promote the advantages of of purchasing LV/Veritas metal soled bench planes. Nothing personal Derek. Just stating the facts as I see it.

For those interested here are the photo's of the boxed chamfer planes I made.

regards Stewie;

Nice planes Stewie ;-)

For me the use of the double iron has been a breakthrough. Almost all my planes have a chipbreaker, so learning how to use it was pretty essential. And because 99% of the second hand planes come equiped with it, why not learn to use these planes to their full potential? I am a garage tinkerer and learned most of my skills from the Internet. 4 years ago the Internet communty was pretty confident that the chipbreaker was a useless appendage, all the while ignoring the overwhelming amount of antique double iron planes.

So, personally I have nothing against using a high cutting angle, but don't suggest it is somehow "better" . I regard the chipbreaker to be a technical step forward.

From a personal perspective I am sick an tired of the whole debate. If I decide to make some more traditional hand planes in the future it will be for personal use only.

Stewie;

Originally Posted by planemaker

I dont quite follow the notion that double iron woodies are that much harder to make than single iron woodies.

They're not technically difficult except for if you want to go into production, there's a problem getting the irons that isn't just solved by a man and a mill (the cap irons are thick, and they're sprung). Steve's taken care of that problem.

There are other technical issues to take care that are trivial for the maker once they're taken care of, but I haven't seen anyone discuss them properly. When Larry suggested that you can't use the whole width of the iron, everyone took it as fact. It's not. Steve and I worked through the internals of my "good" planes on SMC and the first one that I made that was double iron has no problem feeding, and it doesn't have to have a grossly large mouth for it.

There's details like where do the fingers terminate (importantly, they have to terminate at the apex of the cap and not too far before it, whereas a single iron plane has no such requirement), what's the shape of them, how are the abutments cut (they terminate in the wear).

At any rate, they're not so much "skill" in making, they are bits of knowledge that nobody seems to possess, and if they did, nobody shared them when Steve and I were having out loud discussions of the bits and pieces. It certainly was MUCH harder to make infill planes out of O1 with nothing but a cordless drill. Getting in a peeing contest about what's harder to make is kind of pointless, though, it doesn't offer the end user anything.

As far as making double iron planes, I presume the average person who takes a krenov plane probably makes double iron planes, because that's how the irons and caps are provided, but the caps are deficient compared to an old woody cap which is sprung instead and provides a whole lot of support to the iron edge (that being the reason that a double iron woody will stop you in your tracks in the heaviest cut you can take before it will chatter whereas a vintage 3/16" wide ironed jointer will chatter in some heavy cuts).

I'm not here to carry water for steve's prices - they're about the same as anything else around. Phil's smoothers (single iron) are 215 quid, which is about $330 right now, and larry's smoother was somewhere around there. I'd imagine caleb james is too, I have no clue what his prices are, but just guessing because you are squeezing a toad if you try to make it worth your while as a younger person not living on pension income and you trim too much more off the top. Steve's irons, I'm sure, are more expensive because they're custom and slotted, and then he has to make the cap. It pretty much seems in line with everything else, and then the details of who sells what seem to rely on word of mouth (or word of blog). Not to mention, he's got website expenses, and I don't know how many planes he intends to make, but if it's a significant amount, he'll be expected to have or share a booth with someone at those trade shows that drain makers' wallets. Everyone seems to end up around the same amount.

All of those things make me not want to make planes for money, even though I can come up with the supplies to make a couple dozen a year without too much issue (more than that would be a problem). I do want to make planes, and I'll have an issue of quantity. I will probably just dump my planes on ebay on the sly (uncle sam makes it so that it's not worth your while to make a profit on anything here unless you make a lot of profit, so I'll do what it takes to recover costs and that's it).

As much as people may be tired of the talk about the double iron, I notice that it still seems to be news to 90% of people and when nobody was talking about it, it didn't go anywhere. I publicly posted how to make the type of plane without having many specialty tools, all the way down to the internals, and I'd like to see more other people making them and learning to use them because it will be just another thing that helps people toward the same goal that I have - no power tools but still be productive in the shop.

Not surprisingly, the same things I want (accuracy and economy of effort) are what drove the double iron plane into popularity. You can dimension faster with them and finish plane faster with them, and that would've been impossible to ignore economically.

Warms my heart, though to see Derek coming around and really finding a lot of favor for the double iron. You can be good with it in two weeks (just as good as any single iron), but give it a bit longer in the shop and you become great with it. The idea that Derek's viewpoint has some (but I'm sure not all) parity with mine - that it's worth the effort to learn - might make him cringe a little

But I think the double iron disease is catchy for anyone who stays around it for anyone who tries it in earnest for a while.

David, I've been a banner carrier for the double iron since 2012 (despite what Warren wants to post on WC). Here's a thread on this forum from 2012:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/chip-breakers-cap-irons-153175

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, I've been a banner carrier for the double iron since 2012 (despite what Warren wants to post on WC). Here's a thread on this forum from 2012:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/chip-breakers-cap-irons-153175

Regards from Perth

Derek

I do recall, though at the outset, I remember you had some results that weren't not quite as good as you'd have liked (this being around the initial flurry in April 2012), and still felt there was a need to keep around over-60 degree single iron planes for things that you weren't getting the results you wanted with a common pitch plane.

Curious as to whether or not that's the case.

I have found just one piece of wood at this point (that I would practically use on anything) that doesn't like being planed, a piece of quartersawn cocobolo that has such weak earlywood that I suspect it wasn't dried properly. It doesn't like being planed by anything, it doesn't even like being scraped. I can get an acceptable result on it (in reality, weak earlywood doesn't wear very well over time, anyway, so perfection will be worn off). It would make an interesting box, but it's a stick I keep in case I ever want to make another small infill.

Anyway, from other cocobolo to quartered persimmon to everything else, the common pitch plane has done at least as well as anything else I've had, and there's something really nice about being able to keep every single plane I use under on a regular basis under the bench (and one sharpening stone out on the sharpening bench).

I fully understand the love and dedicstion for making planes. But 385 for a smoother that has a machined blade its a little bit too precious for me. maybe under $US150 will be a fair market price for that.

Good luck finding one Mihai. And I mean finding one made from solid beech (not laminated) with a real wedge (not a cheap crosspin) and a tapered blade. Just such a blade alone from LV without the slot is over 40 dollar. That's without the capiron.

I don't think there is anything comparable on the market today.

Originally Posted by rmihai

I fully understand the love and dedicstion for making planes. But 385 for a smoother that has a machined blade its a little bit too precious for me. maybe under $US150 will be a fair market price for that.

$150 is probably not far from the cost of materials plus overhead (website, shipping, etc).

They're always going to be about $300-$350 or so for single iron planes and probably a little more for double iron because of the cost of the double iron.

It's interesting that when the double iron planes came out, they were more expensive. When someone tries to build them again, they realize that they will need to be a little more expensive to cover the cost of the iron, etc.

In the US, if you want a steady supply of american beech, you either buy it from horizon and stockpile it (even then you have to follow it around, it end checks, etc,) or you get it wet and dry it yourself over a period of years (american beech molds easily and is subject to cracking as it lets go of its water quickly. Same with apple).

I've got no clue how long it takes steve to build a plane like that. I've built a dozen, and I have focused on getting faster at it while I'm doing it, and it would still take me a full workday to make a smoother plane. I like to think if I made a hundred, I might be able to make two a day, but securing beech, working on getting supply and dealing with customers is not going to allow someone to just make two planes a day.

Fortunately, for you as a buyer, there is a healthy supply of nice english coffin smoothers. It may take a month or two to find a really good one, and then you need to know the design items to make it work well. Those have been discussed various places, and the entire build process of my plane is online in very long and boring videos. Every double iron plane of quality that I've seen has the same design elements (abutments terminating in the wear, etc, wedge neatly fit, etc). If you get a good one and go over it, it will be as good as the expensive ones. But you have to put in the time to learn it, and also just as important, the plane needs to stay in regular use - a plane in regular use made of beech works better than one that's just used here and there. Everything stays just so.

Oh - thank you. I don't nedd to find one. I make my own planes for years - from smoothers to molding and you name it... I know how much work goes for an experienced maker to make one - 1 day - and the iron is the key - machine made irons can be sourced for 50 or under. Too many people think in terms of hourly rate. The market is the market - over $150 a simple smoother is a hard sale in any parts of the world.

Originally Posted by Corneel

Good luck finding one Mihai. And I mean finding one made from solid beech (not laminated) with a real wedge (not a cheap crosspin) and a tapered blade. Just such a blade alone from LV without the slot is over 40 dollar. That's without the capiron.

I don't think there is anything comparable on the market today.

D.W. With all the respect. Making acap iron is extremelly easy and there are supplkers of metal where the cost will be around $5. That is not an issue. I agree that the blade itself can cost many 100s or even thousands. But that is simply not the case for a LV blade. As for the wood - i get mine mostly free from kijiji, neighboors and various forests. I like to use black locust and osage orange when I find. Proer air drying for years gives me better supply. Both woods I mentioned are far superior to beech (American or otherwise...). Persimon works too - harder to find....the key is in the drying process....

Originally Posted by D.W.

$150 is probably not far from the cost of materials plus overhead (website, shipping, etc).

They're always going to be about $300-$350 or so for single iron planes and probably a little more for double iron because of the cost of the double iron.

It's interesting that when the double iron planes came out, they were more expensive. When someone tries to build them again, they realize that they will need to be a little more expensive to cover the cost of the iron, etc.

In the US, if you want a steady supply of american beech, you either buy it from horizon and stockpile it (even then you have to follow it around, it end checks, etc,) or you get it wet and dry it yourself over a period of years (american beech molds easily and is subject to cracking as it lets go of its water quickly. Same with apple).

I've got no clue how long it takes steve to build a plane like that. I've built a dozen, and I have focused on getting faster at it while I'm doing it, and it would still take me a full workday to make a smoother plane. I like to think if I made a hundred, I might be able to make two a day, but securing beech, working on getting supply and dealing with customers is not going to allow someone to just make two planes a day.

Fortunately, for you as a buyer, there is a healthy supply of nice english coffin smoothers. It may take a month or two to find a really good one, and then you need to know the design items to make it work well. Those have been discussed various places, and the entire build process of my plane is online in very long and boring videos. Every double iron plane of quality that I've seen has the same design elements (abutments terminating in the wear, etc, wedge neatly fit, etc). If you get a good one and go over it, it will be as good as the expensive ones. But you have to put in the time to learn it, and also just as important, the plane needs to stay in regular use - a plane in regular use made of beech works better than one that's just used here and there. Everything stays just so.

D.W. With all the respect. Making acap iron is extremelly easy and there are supplkers of metal where the cost will be around $5. That is not an issue. I agree that the blade itself can cost many 100s or even thousands. But that is simply not the case for a LV blade. As for the wood - i get mine mostly free from kijiji, neighboors and various forests. I like to use black locust and osage orange when I find. Proer air drying for years gives me better supply. Both woods I mentioned are far superior to beech (American or otherwise...). Persimon works too - harder to find....the key is in the drying process....

rmihai. With all the respect. Making a handplane is a different kettle of fish when one does just does it for oneself. Often the materials may the cheap part. A blade can be procured from a number of places. Does it matter what it looks like? A chipbreaker can be made to fit and work. There are plenty of derelict junkers from which to salvage parts.

Personally, I would not purchase a plane that looked like a mannequin. I want something that brings as much pleasure in handling it as it bring satisfaction from its performance.

Further, I am very capable of making any plane that you care to mention, and have done my share of plane making over the years. So I know what goes into a plane, both metal and wooden types, how long they take to make, and that the hidden costs lie not in the parts, but in the labour. There is also cost for his experience and knowledge - do not ignore that. Whom would you prefer to have build you a plane - someone who makes something that resembles a plane, or one where the key attributes are present but just not obvious?

In the case of Steve's plane's the costs of the parts are a significant part of the total, but the labour is an even greater part of the whole. Now if you asked me to build you a plane at my professional rates, I wonder if you could afford it? Time is money when one does this professionally. It is a different world for the hobbyest.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek - I have seen your name on very many postings over very many forums, over many years. Some of us choose to talk and write more -that is perfecly fine -they might have the time. I didn't - too busy doing restoration work for various museum. And, as I might not afford your services, you or most anyone will afford mine. I do not know what manequin planes are you talking about... Mine are top nothch planes, that I do not like to brag about. More so, I am making planes for various tasks, and not only by their traditional name.

I would love Steven to succed and sale ghem for 1000 and not 385. Than I can sell them too -because will mean there is a market.

It seems to many missunderstood my previous statement: I meant the Market will not readily pay over 150 for a 40 blade. I didn't said that Steven planes are not worth 385 or even more...

Linguistics some might argue -well yes - but tbe beauty and the besst are in details...

Ps too many people think that I have the time to sitvproperly in front of a computer and write posts, snd post pictures, erc. As we speak I am in an airplane, trying this little keybords from this little tablet and becoming frustated. Writting duch long message is a challenge on this devices.

Peace

Originally Posted by derekcohen

rmihai. With all the respect. Making a handplane is a different kettle of fish when one does just does it for oneself. Often the materials may the cheap part. A blade can be procured from a number of places. Does it matter what it looks like? A chipbreaker can be made to fit and work. There are plenty of derelict junkers from which to salvage parts.

Personally, I would not purchase a plane that looked like a mannequin. I want something that brings as much pleasure in handling it as it bring satisfaction from its performance.

Further, I am very capable of making any plane that you care to mention, and have done my share of plane making over the years. So I know what goes into a plane, both metal and wooden types, how long they take to make, and that the hidden costs lie not in the parts, but in the labour. There is also cost for his experience and knowledge - do not ignore that. Whom would you prefer to have build you a plane - someone who makes something that resembles a plane, or one where the key attributes are present but just not obvious?

In the case of Steve's plane's the costs of the parts are a significant part of the total, but the labour is an even greater part of the whole. Now if you asked me to build you a plane at my professional rates, I wonder if you could afford it? Time is money when one does this professionally. It is a different world for the hobbyest.

Regards from Perth

Derek