Thread: New wooden double iron plane maker

...forgot to mention... I keep repeating the blade is important - why? Because with the same blade you can build yourself let's say 3 wooden bodies and with just one blade all of a sudden you have 3 planes. You switch the blade from one another as you need it. Youa djust the mouth differently, etc - I let you discover the rest - just think about the versatility!

Originally Posted by rmihai

D.W. With all the respect. Making acap iron is extremelly easy and there are supplkers of metal where the cost will be around $5. That is not an issue. I agree that the blade itself can cost many 100s or even thousands. But that is simply not the case for a LV blade. As for the wood - i get mine mostly free from kijiji, neighboors and various forests. I like to use black locust and osage orange when I find. Proer air drying for years gives me better supply. Both woods I mentioned are far superior to beech (American or otherwise...). Persimon works too - harder to find....the key is in the drying process....

I can't agree about those two woods for planes. Beech is superior to them for long planes (anything longer than smoothers). I don't love beech for coffin smoothers because it seems a pound light, but sourcing a wood that's got SG of 1 and is quartersawn isn't an easy task.

As far as the cap iron goes, it's probably $5 of materials, but to make a proper one, it needs to taper in thickness to its end and curve. It takes a little bit of work to make one like that and make it accurately. $5 of material, but not a $5 proposition even if the materials are inexpensive. The classiest of the cap irons have facets on them like the old english ones, and brass fixtures, but I don't think we'll see those again.

I agree there's not a deep market for $300-$500 planes, but there is an established one, especially if the maker is willing to make aesthetically nice ones. This is a case where the price appears to be pre-determined and then the supply is based on how many the market will support at that price. Otherwise, there will be no professional makers making them lower than that. The market could support higher if it wanted, and then more makers would probably come in as they could get more $$ for a plane. I don't think we'll see makers making planes with both the performance and aesthetics of the types like Larry and the followers-on have made for any significant amount, but from time to time, a maker shows up making rather homely planes and sometimes for an inexpensive price (or in one case, common glued together planes for unbelievably high prices), but I don't think they'll have the staying power of the classic form, either because they'll get burnt out and not have the financial incentive to keep going, or more likely, because they just won't have much luck getting sales without the expense of trade shows, etc.

The market of plane buyer is an odd thing. Several years ago, mujingfang was selling a 50mm ebony continental smoother for about $65. You, me and everyone else couldn't get the materials to make an ebony plane that large with a HSS 2 inch iron and a matching cap iron that cheap. Nobody wanted to buy it, except for a person or two. The couple who bought it didn't like the way muji packed the planes and were fixated that the horn had small chips or dents because of the packing (something that could be easily fixed by anyone capable of any level of woodworking). The same folks would probably not have a problem with a $350 smoother if they were told it was the best and it came *looking* perfect. Most people of that type have a lot of planes that sit.

Anyway, The $300+ smoothers have sold fairly well for a while - 10 or 15 years? just not to people like us who'd rather make than pay. aesthetic near-perfection both in design and execution is required at that level, though.

Originally Posted by rmihai

...forgot to mention... I keep repeating the blade is important - why? Because with the same blade you can build yourself let's say 3 wooden bodies and with just one blade all of a sudden you have 3 planes. You switch the blade from one another as you need it. Youa djust the mouth differently, etc - I let you discover the rest - just think about the versatility!

I think we're talking about entirely different types planes. With 19th century planes, the blade and plane go together, and they have different profiles on them and drastically different widths. It's not practical to switch them around, because a jack plane with an iron straight across is kind of pointless, a trying plane with a 2 inch iron, same, and a smoother with a 2 1/2 inch wide iron (which is ideal for a try plane or jointer) would be ungainly.

Originally Posted by rmihai

...and just to clarify my previous short astatments (created by the same frustations with this small devides..). All my posts here were meant as an emcouragement for the ones that are thinking about a wooden plane. Please try to make yourself a favot and take on this projects - will be helpful, rewwarding and will give you more practice and inside view of the tools you are using. Just think about it - if you embraced the traditional methods of work f 18th- 19th century - how many cabinetmakers will have the uxury/time to buy planes from overseas? Mostly no one. Most everybody will build their planes as they need them - creating a relationship wit a blacksmith and explaining what they need. Sure, your projects might not look very nice at the begining (mnkeys as Derek said) - but, you will not care - becaue will be your work and your effort and you will know (as your predecesosrs) that most important is its functionality and not looks.

Enjoy the sail to the unknown

Cabinetmakers here generally don't use planes - not even the amish, the exception being the one-off custom commission guys who only build very high end (most of those guys have gone to building modern furniture, though, that's where the market is). The bulk of the market for planes is white collar workers looking for hobby. Many aren't very competent, but some are making furniture as good or better (probably better) than any professional shop (a physican's work shown on another forum recently comes to mind).

I don't know of any blacksmiths making quality irons. Most of the blacksmiths, even at williamsburg, don't like to use very high carbon steel because it's difficult for them to forge weld to a backing iron. The makers of that type of iron were mechanized. There are many irons of the japanese style still forge welded to wrought, but a lot of irons sold are rikizai (the material comes from the mill already laminated and the irons are just cut out with a die and then finished off, and heat treated the modern way in a gas or vacuum forge).

I don't know of anyone in north america making accurate slotted and tapered blades out of wrought (or even solid) water hardening steel or something similar. the iron that LV is making is the first modern slotted and tapered iron I've seen. I have no idea if it will become available to the general public, and have no clue how much more machine time it costs them to taper it (or even if it's curved/hollow in the back like the good vintage irons are), but I don't think we'll see them for $40 or less than about double that with a proper cap.

When we compare inferior planes that people quickly make (glue together planes with no handles), we're talking about two very different things when it actually comes to more than smoothing wood.

The best woods I used for making hand planes are in order;
1. Ipe (Brazilian Walnut)
2. Osage Orange
3. Jatoba (Brazilian Cherry)
4. Tigerwood
5. Black Locust
6. Boxwood
7. Persimmon

But I agree with D.W. - for starters probably will be better if you stay with Birch or Beach - easier to work with - and you might avoid some frustrations and disappointments...

If none of the above can be easily found I still prefer Birch to Beech mainly because is more stable. but than again, I like tomatoes you like tomato... Not to pleaple are the same - what is mmore important is that we share and communicate - we learn from each other....

Cheers

... as for blacksmiths - if you do not find locally (which I necourage you to do so - e.g. http://www.beebeknives.com/ ) than Thanks God Japan still has many MASTER Blacksmiths - they are eager for your orders and you will be not pnly pleased - but rather IMPRESSED with the quality you will get for your money.

Originally Posted by rmihai

The best woods I used for making hand planes are in order;
1. Ipe (Brazilian Walnut)
2. Osage Orange
3. Jatoba (Brazilian Cherry)
4. Tigerwood
5. Black Locust
6. Boxwood
7. Persimmon

If none of the above can be easily found I still prefer Birch to Beech mainly because is more stable. but than again, I like tomatoes you like tomato... Not to pleaple are the same - what is mmore important is that we share and communicate - we learn from each other....

Cheers

I'd like to see some pictures of your planes to understand why you'd prefer those over beech.

Also, do you know if the smith you've referred to can accurately make an iron that is:
* 2 1/2" wide
* 8 inches long
* 1% carbon steel bit
* wrought iron backing
* flat on the face
* cut hollow on the bevel side
* slotted - accurately

for about $40 or so?

I think the answer is probably no, or someone else would be making those. That's the kind of iron that would be ideal for a trying plane.

I remember talking to steve knight years ago, and steve was making a much simpler style of plane (the long planes were lacking, and the smoothers were not the equal of a double iron vintage coffin smoother, but for what he was charging, they were a bargain). Steve remarked while I was talking to him that the japanese makers (he'd substitute a japanese for $100) were confused about why he'd want an iron that's tall and narrow by their specs, and they didn't understand why he'd want it to be perfectly flat. It sounded like they were uninterested in making them.

Personally, I buy the sets of cap irons and irons from the UK because they are unused or very close to it (I don't want to spend 4 board feet of beech and put in a used iron that's had more than a tiny bit consumed, because the top end doesn't end up in the right place). But were I to actually consider making more than one plane a month or so, I'd eventually run into supply problems. And if the supply differs from the bullet points above, I'll just not build wooden planes.

For guys like larry, there just isn't a supply of proper irons, and I doubt larry's irons are hollow (which is a very important bias for bedding and having a reliably good fit even if the wood moves a little) if they're made on a mill, but they may very well be. It's something I'd probably try to figure out if I were making my own irons.

Originally Posted by rmihai

But I agree with D.W. - for starters probably will be better if you stay with Birch or Beach

I wouldn't say that's a for starters thing. I tried everything else I could get a hold of because beech isn't readily available. More dense than beech means a plane either needs to be narrower (undesirable) or razee style (very undesirable to me), and woods harder than beech don't have the same quality of bed, wedge, iron fit that beech does.

It's unusual for someone to make very many planes out of anything other than boxwood and have very good aesthetics, either, because most of those woods mentioned don't carve and pare as well, so the ability to pare and carve them crisply isn't there. Too much scraping or sanding or floating means loss of detail and crisp lines.

Boxwood would make nice smoothers, but finding turkish boxwood in any supply would be difficult. Live oak can be found here in the US, but it's in slabs and you buy the whole slab. To get a slab of it 4" thick that would have areas that you can resaw to quartersawn...I don't know how much that would cost, but I know where the slabs can be had (cross sawmill in georgia). there's just no way I could justify getting the stuff up here when I'm making planes for myself.

Anyway, I suspect your planes are made significantly different than mine, as we're going in different directions, and I haven't made hundreds of planes, but I've probably made fifty of various types - many before I started working wood from rough to finish with hand tools only. That immediately focused my making on double iron planes of an early to mid 1800s type, because they allow you to work in such a way that the worst symptom you have from work is fatigue, and not in the hands. A lot of plane designs cause fatigue in the hands or wrists, and that's a real problem.

ha ha ha D.W. I never said handmade lades for $40 For about $150 - $200 just the blade - but is worth it.

Probably you are right about that we might make different types of planes - I studied the Western styles and the Japanese styles. My personal planes are a mixture of what I need - I wouldn't care less about categorizing them such and such. That those woods do not carve well - perfectly agree with you - but I am not after the aesthetics - I am more of the Shaker/Japanese belief that functionality trumps everything else.

As in regrards sendint you some p[ictures - sure - I will just habe to make it back to Canada - take the pictures, post them on the computer and send them to you. I think I mentioned before - now I am in an airplane to UK for a 2 months contract with a British museum. When I get back home, and when I find the time I will remember you D.Q.

Cheers

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd like to see some pictures of your planes to understand why you'd prefer those over beech.

Also, do you know if the smith you've referred to can accurately make an iron that is:
* 2 1/2" wide
* 8 inches long
* 1% carbon steel bit
* wrought iron backing
* flat on the face
* cut hollow on the bevel side
* slotted - accurately

for about $40 or so?

I think the answer is probably no, or someone else would be making those. That's the kind of iron that would be ideal for a trying plane.

I remember talking to steve knight years ago, and steve was making a much simpler style of plane (the long planes were lacking, and the smoothers were not the equal of a double iron vintage coffin smoother, but for what he was charging, they were a bargain). Steve remarked while I was talking to him that the japanese makers (he'd substitute a japanese for $100) were confused about why he'd want an iron that's tall and narrow by their specs, and they didn't understand why he'd want it to be perfectly flat. It sounded like they were uninterested in making them.

Personally, I buy the sets of cap irons and irons from the UK because they are unused or very close to it (I don't want to spend 4 board feet of beech and put in a used iron that's had more than a tiny bit consumed, because the top end doesn't end up in the right place). But were I to actually consider making more than one plane a month or so, I'd eventually run into supply problems. And if the supply differs from the bullet points above, I'll just not build wooden planes.

For guys like larry, there just isn't a supply of proper irons, and I doubt larry's irons are hollow (which is a very important bias for bedding and having a reliably good fit even if the wood moves a little) if they're made on a mill, but they may very well be. It's something I'd probably try to figure out if I were making my own irons.

So we've gone from $350+ for a hand made plane being too expensive to $200 for a blade being acceptable? Or have I missed something?

Originally Posted by Colin62

So we've gone from $350+ for a hand made plane being too expensive to $200 for a blade being acceptable? Or have I missed something?

I didn't follow that, either. A boutique plane and a boutique iron are sort of in the same boat.

Originally Posted by Corneel

Yes, there are plenty of people with enough money who buy expensive things just because they like to. I think the question "why not use an old one instead" is pretty unique to the handtool woodworking world. Someone whi is thrilling to buy the newest Ducati usually doesn't hear the suggestion that an old scooter could bring him up and down to the pub just as well.

I love old tools, I also enjoy making my own tools. But I also understand the desire to buy new stuff, though it's not my cup of tea.

The planes from Steve Voigt look great. And you won't find one in similar perfect shape on the nearest yard sale.

Love the Ducati and old scooter anology

Brilliant

Can i use that

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

Originally Posted by D.W.

Cabinetmakers here generally don't use planes - not even the amish, the exception being the one-off custom commission guys who only build very high end (most of those guys have gone to building modern furniture, though, that's where the market is). The bulk of the market for planes is white collar workers looking for hobby. Many aren't very competent, but some are making furniture as good or better (probably better) than any professional shop (a physican's work shown on another forum recently comes to mind).

I don't know of any blacksmiths making quality irons. Most of the blacksmiths, even at williamsburg, don't like to use very high carbon steel because it's difficult for them to forge weld to a backing iron. The makers of that type of iron were mechanized. There are many irons of the japanese style still forge welded to wrought, but a lot of irons sold are rikizai (the material comes from the mill already laminated and the irons are just cut out with a die and then finished off, and heat treated the modern way in a gas or vacuum forge).

I don't know of anyone in north america making accurate slotted and tapered blades out of wrought (or even solid) water hardening steel or something similar. the iron that LV is making is the first modern slotted and tapered iron I've seen. I have no idea if it will become available to the general public, and have no clue how much more machine time it costs them to taper it (or even if it's curved/hollow in the back like the good vintage irons are), but I don't think we'll see them for $40 or less than about double that with a proper cap.

When we compare inferior planes that people quickly make (glue together planes with no handles), we're talking about two very different things when it actually comes to more than smoothing wood.

Hi DW. It looks to me as though the tapered irons Steve is using from LV are not hollow ground on the underside but flat milled. The cap iron Steve makes are also of an abnormally heavier gauge. The resulting effect would cause the iron to deform under tension, rather than give in to the iron as traditionally found.

Stewie;

http://blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com.au/

Originally Posted by rmihai

Ps too many people think that I have the time to sitvproperly in front of a computer and write posts, snd post pictures, erc. As we speak I am in an airplane, trying this little keybords from this little tablet and becoming frustated. Writting duch long message is a challenge on this devices.

Peace

I feel your pain. I spend as much time on the forum as possible but mostly on my phone - in transit, during a dull minute at work, lunch, smoko. Often time only for a quick comment and not able to put the time into a comment I would like.

Ive been in bed sick for 2 days and have been using my time to catch up on a few posts and am in the process of reading this start to finish.

To all who have contributed - I have found this an interesting thread. Thank you for all your time and effort. IN the next couple of years I would like to have a serious go at tool making

DaveTTC

Turning Wood Into Art