Thread: 2nd table saw: Doing my head in

Originally Posted by DomAU

Or buy the 2016 second hand Hammer K3 Winner on sale at the moment for about $6k and be done with it

I'm still wondering what I'm missing, that's basically new price on the K3 according to the price list I have from felder...it doesn't have an outrigger or anything fancy in the way of accessories on it that I can see. I'm not sure who wants to buy second hand at new prices!

On the Harvey vs Carbatec, I would try to look at them both, I would look inside and feel how smoothly things adjust and operate, hands on is the best way to judge quality.

I wouldn't buy a saw stop, at the low end I'd use the same money to buy a cabinet saw like the ones you are looking at. At the high end I wouldn't buy the big cabinet sawstop, I would buy the K3 hammer. I'd always work with a riving knife, I'd keep the guard on, if I wanted to do non-through cuts and dado cuts I'd build an overhead holder for the guard so that I could do them with the guard in place. I use push sticks, featherboards etc to keep my hands well away from the dangerous parts of machines.

I was also in two minds when I was looking at buying a TS, at the time Carbatec had just released their new range....the Harvey however just ticked all the boxes (more grunt, 3 v 1 belt, etc) for just slightly more coin. The Carbatec does have an internal dust chute over the Harvey from memory. Here is a pic of my set up.

IMG_0372.jpg

Originally Posted by Austin_Turner

I'm still wondering what I'm missing, that's basically new price on the K3 according to the price list I have from felder...it doesn't have an outrigger or anything fancy in the way of accessories on it that I can see. I'm not sure who wants to buy second hand at new prices!

On the Harvey vs Carbatec, I would try to look at them both, I would look inside and feel how smoothly things adjust and operate, hands on is the best way to judge quality.

I wouldn't buy a saw stop, at the low end I'd use the same money to buy a cabinet saw like the ones you are looking at. At the high end I wouldn't buy the big cabinet sawstop, I would buy the K3 hammer. I'd always work with a riving knife, I'd keep the guard on, if I wanted to do non-through cuts and dado cuts I'd build an overhead holder for the guard so that I could do them with the guard in place. I use push sticks, featherboards etc to keep my hands well away from the dangerous parts of machines.

I was in the market for a new table saw about 18 months ago. I had a Carbatec contractor saw, purchased 20 years before, and made in Taiwan. It was strongly built, and I upgraded it over the years, for example, changing the 2 hp motor for a 3 hp. and adding a Biesemeyer fence. The message here is that 3 hp is the minimum I would go for, and the fence upgrade was also worth it.

I was considering a SawStop, the larger one with the improved fence. The alternative was the Hammer K3. Their build quality was much of a muchness - both really quite superb. It was possible to see that a Felder was better still, but it made me aware that at some point one accepts what is good enough. The SS and K3 are more than good enough. My old Carbatec was good enough (going strong after 20 years, and likely to see another 20 easily).

I continued my researching, and discovered that there was another factor to consider: how one uses a tablesaw. My carbatec tablesaw had a sliding crosscut table, and this was my experience of such mechanisms. I was planning on another with the SS, and understood this to be the same deal with the slider on the K3. What I discovered is that they are not the same. This is an important difference. One can only crosscut on the SS, but on the K3 one also uses the slider to rip ... and this turns the K3 into a very safe saw. It is also a saw design that is on another level altogether to a traditional tablesaw, such as the SS, even when the latter has a crosscut table. Google for "Fritz and Frans jig". This will demonstrate.

At that point it was the K3 all the way. The basic price for a no-frills version (basic rip fence and shortest slider. I think that is 850mm long) was $6500 (about the same price as the SS). I ended up with a slider the next size up (1250mm), which is as big as I can go in my workshop, and the Professional fence. I do not have a scoring blade (I do not work with laminates or sheet goods), and no spindle moulder (I am predominantly still a hand tool user, and I have built in a router table). I do have the dado head, but this was gift . I do not have a blade for it - that costs a Lot! The total came to $8500 with delivery. Ouch ... about $2k more than I planned for. I took a deep breathe and signed. 18 months later I continue to feel spoilt and a lucky fellow. I will heartedly recommend the K3.

When you start tossing around $6000 for a second hand K3, you have to ask what accessories/features it comes with. These are saws that are build to the buyers specification. Few are exactly the same.

Small footprint. 4 hp powers through anything! (SS is 3 hp). 12" blade (SS is 10") ....




Professional fence (is amazing) with Wixey DRO, and router table behind ..



Regards from Perth

Derek

Hey Derek,

The one we are referring to is this $5.4k excl. machine here: https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...K3-Saw/481744/

Q1 2019 1250mm winner 240v new with 800mm round pro rip fence was approx $6.2k excl.

Which I really don't think is a big enough discount on a two year old machine. But I looked at the ad a few times because I would love a slider and don't have much space. If I met someone out there in the market looking for a sawstop cabinet saw at ~$5k+ I'd point them to this.

Out of the OP's budget though, so we should stop the thread hijack

Austin, that looks like the same machine as mine. It has the upgraded slider, upgraded fence, it may have the scoring blade. It just lacks the mobility kit, which mine has. The fact that it is 2 years old may mean little if it has had minimal use, as it appears (it looks new). I would grab this machine! What you may not be aware of is that, since each K3 is essentially a custom build, typically you wait 3-6 months for delivery.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Its not out of my budget if you guys contribute to it. I think that's only fair for hijacking the thread :P And as an added bonus, I'll even send you pictures of it when I get it! How's that for a deal?

On a more serious note, I think I'll end up going for the Harvey HW110LGE-30 for the below reasons:

- It itself is a highly regarded saw. It is a known good saw.
- I could go for the HW110LC which is a 2HP saw, not needing a 15 amp. However, 2HP vs 3HP and there's only a 10% or so price difference between the two from where I can actually buy them - $200 or so. 1 extra HP for $200? Why not?
- Carbatec: Good reports from several people and there's strong evidence that its the same saw as the Harvey/Grizzly. However, 2.5HP vs 3HP. The above comment applies again really. Plus the fact while the Carbatecs are very likely the grizzly, we know the HW110LGE-30 _is_ the grizzly.
- Part replacement: as someone pointed out, the only thing likely to go is the motor and even that, at say 10 minutes of actually running time a week on average, I can't imagine that is going to happen anytime soon. And if it does, I've learnt that electric motors have a standard frame size.
- Will I need the 3HP? No idea. Having too much oomphage is rarely a problem as I understand it. Having too little can be downright dangerous if it slows down too much and decides to fling the bit of wood at you. (This is more about ruling out the cheapest Sawstop saw that is vaguely within budget while being 1.75 HP)
- I'm starting to learn that the fences and mitre gauges don't really matter: you can get after market ones that are awesome. The Harvey will be a damn sight better than my Ryobi.
- The guard: I do like the guard on the Carbatec with the flippy-downy-sidey bits (technical term there). However apparently the hovery-overy-the-toppy guard that the Harvey comes with is good enough for the Europeans and they banned the dado.
- SawS Would love one. Way too pricey.
- Laguna: I had enough trouble deciding between 4 saws. Now you want to introduce another?!
- 3 belts _has_ to be better than 1 right? That's totally legit.

I can find things ... "wrong" (using that word very loosely) with other saws. With the Harvey it seems to be all ticks. The saving will begin and hopefully by the time BBTA get it back in stock, I'll be able to waddle on down there, have a good look at the unit in person and go for it.

Thanks to all those who replied, hijacked, PM'd and offered tours of their gear, much appreciated.

I'd go for the 3 hp Harvey. It was on my short list. I would not want less than 3 hp in Oz, since some of our hard wood is Hard Wood. The USA (and Europe) can get away with 1.75 hp. The fence that comes with the Harvey will see you through. I would not be in a hurry to change it. The one add-on I would look at is the sliding crosscut table. I had one on my Carbatec, and it was better than sliced bread ... you could use it for that as well

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great decision, you won't be disappointed.

As I mentioned earlier, BBT has an ebay shop as well, if you time it right and get one of the ebay 10 or 20% off vouchers that come along closer to the end of the financial year, you'll have money left to get a router wing as well [emoji3]

Originally Posted by TheCrazedLog

Its not out of my budget if you guys contribute to it. I think that's only fair for hijacking the thread :P And as an added bonus, I'll even send you pictures of it when I get it! How's that for a deal?

- I could go for the HW110LC which is a 2HP saw, not needing a 15 amp. However, 2HP vs 3HP and there's only a 10% or so price difference between the two from where I can actually buy them - $200 or so. 1 extra HP for $200? Why not?
- Will I need the 3HP? No idea. Having too much oomphage is rarely a problem as I understand it. Having too little can be downright dangerous if it slows down too much and decides to fling the bit of wood at you. (This is more about ruling out the cheapest Sawstop saw that is vaguely within budget while being 1.75 HP)

Thanks to all those who replied, hijacked, PM'd and offered tours of their gear, much appreciated.

Seems fair for the hammer, I’ll contribute the wheel kit to make it easy to get on the trailer to bring it round to my place for visits

If I’m lazy to change or clean my blade or I feed too fast, I will bog down and stall my 2hp saw when ripping (I rip with my big bandsaw now and just joint/plane the rough cut). I would always recommend more hp. Also, you’ll need a separate circuit put in, which will take the load off and stop you tripping circuits with small breakers with your saw + dusty + dryer + heater + kettle (depending how the house was wired).

Replies, hijacks, offers and PM’s are par for the course here, hope you stick around and share as you get your saw and make things!

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Harvey. If you're used to the Ryobi saw, the Harvey is going to blow you away. Definitely get the 3hp model.

The other things I'd get would be a dial indicator, accurate square, straight edge, and a good mitre gauge. The saw is only going to be as accurate as your setup of it. If you don't have a burly assistant when putting the saw together, consider hiring out an engine lift.

like others, I give you congrats for making a decision. What I really enjoyed about your post here was the conversation that has somewhat echoed my own internal conversation that I've been having for a little while for when I end up getting a proper TS in a year or two, about the relative value of a SS versus any other option, and I've made a similar determination - but I still keep an eye out for a cheap 2nd hand SS

Arise ye olde thread fromest thy grave of inactivitey!

Quick update: I've been keeping an eye out for 2nd hand saws but none seemed to come up that were right. I had a look at and a play with the 110LGE-30 at Major Woodworking the other day: A very nice bit of kit, light years ahead of my little Ryobi (as one would expect). I've placed an order for it and hope to receive it within the week, however being 150km away that may not happen. Still, we shall see. I'll report on reception.

Well done on Harvey, I have it and love it, one of my better purchases I think

I went with the old adage: buy once, buy well. I reckon this though ought to last the better part of a lifetime.