Thread: 4-in-1 Combination Machine - opportunity of a lifetime?

Originally Posted by delbs

Having owned two difference packages of the hammer c3 31 i certainly appreciate the longer slider (2050mm) on the model i now compared to approx 1200-1500 of the perform model from memory. The Lab300 seems to have 1600 which seems pretty good. Definitely consider your floor space dimensions in front and behind it to get as long of a slider as you can possibly fit and on wheels incase it doesnt quite fit those longer lengths that need to poke out the roller door to machine

A point about floor space needed for a slider. Up to about 2.5 metres the space required is the same for any saw, if a 2.4 sheet is ripped it requires the same infeed and outfeed space whether it is a slider or a contractor saw. The very long panel saws are another story altogether.

Yeah absolutely too much space for what I can do so I rip down sheets or lengths like this with a track saw before using on the table saw.

I have an SCM SC2. I am overall happy thus far (haven't used it extensively yet), though this is the only table saw I have ever used and thus can't compare to anything.

It has a 1600mm slider. I don't think I would want to go shorter than that really.

Ultimately total floor space needed for a table saw depends on the length of stock being cut. You need the same infeed and outfeed room with whatever size saw. The sliders do occupy a bit more space at rest.

I looked at combos and decided on separate saw. I have the saw positioned against a wall. A combo unit can't sit against a wall, and needs plenty of space around the jointer / thicknesser side.

My SC2 is 400kg and I would not want it sitting on castors. And dust collection is easier / better for a fixed position.

I am guilty of trying to have far to much stuff in my space though (woodwork + CNC + metal work).

Originally Posted by Shines

Hello to all,

I currently have something of an opportunity that I doubt will ever repeat. I am turning 40 (only happens once! ), and my dear wife has agreed to letting me upgrade some of my machines in the workshop . Namely my old 12" Carbatec beast table saw (somewhat unsafe / inaccurate), and my little Jet benchtop thicknesser (because it's the noisiest machine known to man).

I am currently looking at combination (4-in-1) type machines, as my workshop is a simple double garage which doesn't really have the room for multiple standalone machines. To undertake any serious projects, I normally have to move stuff out first.
On my last visit to my local Carbatec (Brisbane) I got to see one of the SCM Minimax C30 Genius machines in the flesh, which was something I hadn't previously considered. The sliding table / outrigger looks like a great feature since occasionally I do cut sheets and have to do them by hand on the saw horses, the spiral head jointer/thicknesser combo looks great, and the spindle moulder looks like a bit of extra functionality that I might get some good use out of later. The only downside I can see is going back to a 10" main saw.

I am looking for opinions on these machines, thoughts on their build quality, reliability / accuracy, longevity (important as this kind of approval doesn't happen often!), and any pain points that might come up. Spending $10k+ on a machine makes it worth doing some due diligence! I got a quote on a Hammer C3-31 machine (~$21k) with similar options, although the Hammer' specs more directly compares to the Minimax Lab300 at ~$16k. Are the Hammer machines that much better, and worth ~$6k more? I just don't want to make a mistake of buying a machine that I realise later was not the right way to go.

I am a hobbyist, and the kind of work I do is generally furniture type projects, almost entirely out of hardwoods. I do have a 20-amp power socket in the workshop.

Appreciate any thoughts or advice the wise old folk of the forum can provide!

Thanks for reading.

-Scott

I was in your position about 10 years ago, at the time I didnt know too much about Felder/Hammer/SCM. I drove pass my local machinery dealer one day, they had a Robland NX410 (5 in 1, 410mm wide J/P combo, 2.4m carriage) with Tersa cutter block on display, a week later I bought it.

At the time it costed me $20k NZD.

IMG_3953.jpg

since I bought the combo, I took on more work, as I took on more work, my production is limited due to the nature of the combination machine, I sold the combo and I bought a number of machinery, some second hand, some brand new, such as my Felder AD951, it costed me about $18k NZD (+GST) at the time

IMG_3068.jpg

Again, due to increased work load, I sold my Felder 2 years ago, bought new SCM machines, my workshop is now almost full of SCM.

10.jpg8.jpg

(The Griggio panel saw is sold, my SCM L'Invincibile si X is finally arriving at end of May (ordered in Jul 2021!))

In terms of combination machine, Felder/Hammer does this very well, Felder's first machine in 1956 was a combination machine I believe, Felder is well known with home handy man, professional hobbyist... etc, the online presence is huge. Some people absolutely love their Felder/Hammer.

reading the thread it seems Felder's pricing has gone up quite a bit in the recent years.

So, SCM or Felder combination machine? I actually dont know, I have never owned one! if you can put your hand on a Hammer you will know which one you like...

I have always have had dual use shops (cars&#129326 which meant combo machines. First I had a Felder CF731 combo which I used mostly for making picture frames and a bit of light joinery.

Fast forward tsn years and 1200kms, we started our current period 820m2 owner-build house. We bought an older Felder BF6-26. Weeks later a used BF6-31 appeared so we bought that too.

I currently use both combo machines* since I have embraced the spindle moulder function. We have half of a garage space for machines on casters…bandsaw, combo, welder, dusty, router table, drill press all go hard against the wall when not actually in use. I like combination machines when I am not actively cursing the saw/moulder change over time.

Anyway, I am soon going to sell my upgraded BF6-26, and likely my stand alone Steton spindle moulder too. If you can get either a Felder or Minimax combo I would say go for it. If you have more permanent dedicated space then 4 seperate machines might be a better option. Of all of the function conflicts the saw/moulder change over is the worst, but that assumes that you will need+have budget for shaper tooling as opposed to a separate router table.

The fifth function, slot mortising, is problematic, and not worth the money. You can get a Festool domino XL to do all of your loose tenon joinery needs for about the same money, and be able to bring the tool to the workpiece. Voice of experience here, having machined over 2000 domino tenon slots. (And 6 on my previous Felder mortise attachment, which got in the way of everything else)

By explanation, I have been building a very detailed, large period home with mind-numbing detail, so the spindle moulder has been in constant use. For furniture scale projects the change over time and other factors can be easily managed. Not quite so easy when milling 400m of millwork and being too cheap to mill 410m. But needing, as it turns out, 404 m. Head slap.

SCM make fine machinery. In my experience, dealing with the local SCM group directly is awful, and that is sugar-coating it!

If you can avoid having to deal with SCM with Carbatec in between you, you will probably be fine, so long as Carbatec choose to maintain that relationship.

And yeah, avoid the mortiser and buy a Domino.

Don't buy the stupid wheel kits. Buy a pallet jack if you think you will need to move it. The current wheel kits were designed by the village idiot and are fantastically over priced.

Originally Posted by markharrison

If you can avoid having to deal with SCM with Carbatec in between you, you will probably be fine, so long as Carbatec choose to maintain that relationship.

Hopefully. The warranty period is quite short (12 months) considering the expected life of these machines.

Originally Posted by markharrison

Don't buy the stupid wheel kits. Buy a pallet jack if you think you will need to move it. The current wheel kits were designed by the village idiot and are fantastically over priced.

I took another look at the C30 Genius today, and got to ask a few more questions. The wheel kit apparently comes standard on the C30, so that's not something I would would have to buy. I agree, it's a primitive mechanism with a simple hole under the folded edge of the bodywork. No alignment aid, so easy to miss it and end up bending it like the display model had suffered. Using a pallet jack might be interesting for my shop, but a good idea nonetheless. A quick marketplace search shows you can get them quite cheap.

After my conversation Derek yesterday, and seeing his Hammer machine in person, I am basically decided on the Minimax. Seems to tick all the boxes other than not having the 12" blade. Cheaper by a significant margin too.

Cheers,

-Scott

Have you seen this 2nd hand C3 - Used 2016 felder Felder Hammer C3 combination machine A22 dust extractor used in v g condition Combination Machine in Rozelle, NSW

Been there for a while. Might be negotiable.

Originally Posted by Bernmc

Have you seen this 2nd hand C3 - Used 2016 felder Felder Hammer C3 combination machine A22 dust extractor used in v g condition Combination Machine in Rozelle, NSW

Been there for a while. Might be negotiable.

Delbs pointed this one out to me a few days ago. It’s tempting but in my view a bit of a gamble to travel interstate to inspect. I’m guessing it’s unlikely they’ll reduce the price as much as I’d need to justify the travel plus freight getting it home. It’s probably a bit over my budget for a second hand machine.

Good morning to all.

Just thought I would share an update. Somewhat out of the blue, I was presented with an offer to buy an unused 2020 model Lab300P from a local gentleman on the Sunshine Coast (~1.5 hours drive north of my place). The machine was an ex-display which has sat unused. It has a little bit of surface rust on the cast iron tables and some of the steel parts, but nothing that appears too difficult to sort out. Otherwise, its a great looking machine with 0 hours on the clock (still has some wax on some parts), and a few features that I wouldn't have got with the C30 (most notably the bigger saw blade, and the router chuck for the spindle).

Unfortunately I will have to abandon the idea of storing the machine partially underneath the cabinets in my garage (slider too long), and I will need to do a bit of a rearrangement, but that's alright! If it lives out in the middle of my shop, it will present a great excuse to use it more often!

I can't wait to get this big beast home. Photos will follow when I have it all sorted out / cleaned up.

Cheers to all the members that have helped on this journey.

-Scott

Awesome to hear Scott. At least you know it’s a well thought through decision and comparison of functions across different machines and a bonus it’s so close by!

Cheers
Nathan

Hi all,

I have now had the machine home in my workshop for a few weekends, and after cleaning up most of the rusty surfaces it's looking the business.

Some photos of the original machine condition. Obviously was just set up in the store for the display, then they let it rust.
Rust01.jpg Rust02.jpg

But with a bit of elbow-grease, Evaporust and some scotchbrite on the random orbit sander, got it looking pretty good I think:
Clean01.jpg Clean02.jpg Clean03.jpg

Still a few rusty bolts and bits on it, but I will progressively pull them off and clean them up in an Evaporust bath. That stuff is amazing. Top tip for anyone wanting to treat a large surface area; I used those blue shop towels dipped into a bucket of Evaporust carefully laid out on the table surface. I made sure to squeeze out all the air bubbles (this is essential as any dry spots will kind of etch the material), then put cling wrap over the top to prevent drying out. Squeezed out bubbles again, and left overnight. Next day, peeled off, wiped down and gently scrubbed with kitchen scourer with clean water. Gave it a quick hit with an extra fine rectangular scourer pad stuck to the bottom of my ROS and it looked like brand new. Many, many wipes down with oil and grease remover before hitting it with Silbergleit (Silverglide), and its ready to work.

Having heaps of fun with it. It's really a step above any machinery I have used before. There's so much fine adjustment on it, and I bought a little machinists square to check setup of the fences and I have it running great. Basically everything needed squaring up, so it was a bit of a process, but a process that got me quite familiar with all parts of the machine.

I have put myself to work creating custom hangers for the fences and accessories but that's a work in progress for now.
Hangers01.jpg

Stupidly I forgot to take a photo with the items actually hanging in there. That will come later when I have worked out how to hang up some of the more oddly shaped ones.

Cheers,
-Scott

Very nice machine…and good work on the rust-b-gone. That machine and a good bandsaw will do everything a hobbyist could want. For many years the Victorian Arts Center frame and exhibition shop used just a combo machine less advanced than yours.

How long is your slider?

Greg

Originally Posted by Greg Q

Very nice machine…and good work on the rust-b-gone. That machine and a good bandsaw will do everything a hobbyist could want. For many years the Victorian Arts Center frame and exhibition shop used just a combo machine less advanced than yours.

How long is your slider?

Greg

Hi Greg,

I consider myself very fortunate to own such a capable machine. I think I might need to give it a while before requesting the purchase of anything else as mentioned earlier in the thread! I have a little 10" Carbatec bandsaw (a toy) but it cuts and achieves the fiddly stuff that I do.

I believe the slider on the Lab 300 is 1600mm long. All the members advice throughout the thread warning of the space requirements for a slider is true. You need to have essentially double the length of the sliding table available as the table stops at the mid point (i.e. the blade). So with my shop layout, I need to open the garage door to be able to pull the slider back fully. Haven't needed to cut anything that uses the full length of the slider yet, but for sure will need to eventually. The other fun thing is the outrigger, which means I have to squeeze past between my workbench in the centre of the shop. So when I am using the saw with the outrigger on, I just move the machine to the side but that's a 30 second exercise really.

-Scott