Thread: Festool bought SawStop

With the new work safety laws it would be pretty hard to argue that buying a saw without this feature lowers risk to employees as far as reasonably practicable, provided that one is available with all of the other performance features required. Even if it "could" be argued, most managers would be too risk averse to take the chance, and rightly so in this very risk averse culture of ours.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Kudos to Festool for buying Sawstop, and yes I can see this being included or licensed into more pro level machinery. Boo on Sawstop for their action against Bosch. Different engineering solution achieving the same result, cheaper. But like has been said, when a patent attorney owns or has great influence within a business, that would be the expected result. Gotta protect your IP after all.

Maybe it could be argued that the result of that particular case reduces competition and choice to the consumer, but I'm not sure the Umerikans get that concept.

Personally, I can't wait for the Sawstop patent to run out so the Bosch solution can become available. I can't see why that could not be scaleable to larger, commercial grade gear. Prolly cheaper, and quicker to get the machine back in action as well.

Would Altendorf or Martin adopt Sawstop technology, I would think not, Would the Bosch system be an option, I would be thinking, Yes.

Originally Posted by bryn23

id like to see it adapted to bandsaws and beyond

I don't think it would be possible for bandsaws.

Even if you clamp the blade instantly (which will snap it), the wheels will still be spinning which could potentially catch and throw the broken blade. Clamping the wheels would likely be space and cost-prohibitive on any bandsaw with small enough wheels to stop (and you'd likely still have a broken blade flapping about) and larger machines would be impossible because any attempt to stop two 20-40kg wheels from 800rpm to 0 in milliseconds will probably break EVERYTHING.

A 700mm wheel, weighing 20kg, spinning at 800rpm would need about 2000Nm of torque applied to stop in 10ms. Not gonna happen.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

I don't think it would be possible for bandsaws.

Even if you clamp the blade instantly (which will snap it), the wheels will still be spinning which could potentially catch and throw the broken blade. Clamping the wheels would likely be space and cost-prohibitive on any bandsaw with small enough wheels to stop (and you'd likely still have a broken blade flapping about) and larger machines would be impossible because any attempt to stop two 20-40kg wheels from 800rpm to 0 in milliseconds will probably break EVERYTHING.

Scott Technology from NZ already have their BladeStop bandsaw tech for the meat processing industry that will stop the blade in 0.009sec. Obviously it works differently to SawStop given the material being cut is flesh and bone, and operators wear gloves. I'm not saying it would work on a quarter inch blade, but for resaws it shouldn't pose a problem.

The sale of SawStop doesn't surprise me. If the US CPSC imposes regulations requiring blade safety tech on table saws, then effectively it has to declare the patents as essential and require licensing on fair and just terms, similar to what happened in the cellphone industry. SawStop would find themselves no longer exclusive or the patents particularly valuable.

Originally Posted by richmond68

Scott Technology from NZ already have their BladeStop bandsaw tech for the meat processing industry that will stop the blade in 0.009sec. Obviously it works differently to SawStop given the material being cut is flesh and bone, and operators wear gloves. I'm not saying it would work on a quarter inch blade, but for resaws it shouldn't pose a problem.

Very interesting, I'd love to know how they made it work.

Me too. They have both contact and optical sensing to trigger the brake, but I haven't seen any details of the blade brake function.

One feature is that it can detect glove colour
https://www.scottautomation.com/products/bladestop/

Knowing everthing we know about Festool, wouldn't be surprised if they do end up jacking the prices on the Sawstop.

As Festool appear to make everything as perfect as possible, with complete disregard to price. As such wouldn't be surprised if the new sawstop eventually becomes the Powermatic killer in every way possible including the price tag.

Hopefully with the acquisition will mean all the petty legal battles they engaged will allow manufacturers to do what they do best which is making tools to suit every buyer

Originally Posted by richmond68

but I haven't seen any details of the blade brake function.

Full patent submission here: Electric Saw with Operator Protection System - Patent application
The short version is: the blade is clamped and broken in a controlled manner. There's no mention of braking the wheels, but, as the blade is secured, they could be stopped with conventional mechanical or electric braking methods or simply left to stop in their own time.

From what I've seen of it, the bandsaw blade is not bent or broken, you can reset the saw and continue working so the description in those patent docs doesn't reflect how BladeStop is currently implemented. The figure drawing showing eccentric cams with cutters to grab and cut the blade would not permit a reset.

If they can release the blade tension then blade brake and motor brake can be handled independently. Without tension the blade brake only contends with the inertia and mass of the blade itself, not the wheels.

Originally Posted by Lappa

Anyone have any updates on the Bosch alternative?

as far as I know, the Bosch Reaxx has been withdrawn from sale in the US, but it is still available in Canada. Again, AFAIK, SawStop has not commenced any patent action in Canada.
The issue still has some way to go, as (again AFAIK) Bosch haven't exhausted all their legal avenues. But one school of thought is that, with the Reaxx, Bosch was testing the water to perhaps demonstrate to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) that there was only one game in town and therefore the CPSC shouldn't make any ruling on mandating table saw safety.
for why see my response to DomAU below.

Originally Posted by DomAU

I would be happy to pay a few hundred dollars (maybe up to $300/$500?) premium for a saw with this tech, all else being equal, if i was spending around $5k for a saw, but that's about it. I always wondered how much of the saw stop price was due to the safety feature and how much due to the rest of the saw. I can definitely see the motivation to pay a large premium for this in a work/school setting though; that's where the money would be for festool to push this feature imo.

Hi Dom
I think you would be paying a lot more than "a few hundred dollars" premium.
(The Canadian and Australian dollars are near enough 1:1)
In Canada, the SS jobsite saw retails for about $200 less than a Bosch Reaxx.
In turn the Reaxx is around $1000 more expensive than the Bosch 4100-09 on which it is based.
The Reaxx is also around 10 kg heavier than the 4100-09. That number is from memory.

Should the US Consumer Product Safety Commission mandate "active safety measures" on table saws, the outcome might be that all sub $1000 USD table saws would disappear from the market.
Note that in Canada, I can buy a Ryobi "plastic fantastic" table saw for around $130, and a DeWalt DW745 for less than $400. The same DeWalt is $840 at Bunnings.
$840 CAD is about the same as the cost of a 4100-09 job site saw with gravity stand, with the Reaxx with stand costing about $1000 more. So based on that comparison, in Australia, the Reaxx might retail for around $3000.
But more importantly, given the additional engineering and materials required to support the braking mechanism, it is likely that if "active safety" were mandated by the CPSC all sub-$1000 saws would disappear from the US market -- and by far, the sales dollars come from the sub $500 saws, not the plus $1000 ones.

In terms of the Australian market, it might mean that there were no table saws priced at less than $3000.
Note that back in 2002 SawStop was near to signing a licencing deal with Ryobi, which would have added a mere 3 to 8% to the wholesale price of a table saw. 3% on a wholesale price of $400 is just $12. which is less than 1/3 the cost of the GST.


I've had an opportunity to have a very close look at both the SawStop and Bosch job site saws and the SawStop cabinet saws.
In terms of weight and build quality, the top of the range SawStop is on par with a Powermatic -- so the technology adds very little to the overall price.
The SawStop job site saw is considerably heavier and with better build quality than any of it's competitors, except perhaps the Reaxx.
So to answer your question, from the saws I've looked at, most of the price of a SawStop is in the build quality of the saw, not the technology.

Originally Posted by richmond68

From what I've seen of it, the bandsaw blade is not bent or broken, you can reset the saw and continue working so the description in those patent docs doesn't reflect how BladeStop is currently implemented. The figure drawing showing eccentric cams with cutters to grab and cut the blade would not permit a reset.

If they can release the blade tension then blade brake and motor brake can be handled independently. Without tension the blade brake only contends with the inertia and mass of the blade itself, not the wheels.

The saw does require air, so it would be logical for that to be for tension. You could certainly dump enough air pressure in the stated time to take the wheels out of the equation.

It would be interesting to see this in circular saws.

As a bloke a bit familiar with the job site, I think every chippie has or knows a mate with a mangled/missing left thumbnail or forefinger.

There are 500 circs out there for every TS.

The whole system relies on the inertia of the spinning blade being used to throw it under the table when the system fires, where's the blade going to go in a handheld saw? Not to mention that the kick from stopping the blade on some of the larger saws could probably snap your wrist