Thread: SAWSTOP - The Argument

Silent C

I don't recall any case that the computer saved the airplane maybe because we must remember that behind every computer, there is an operator...usually, in case of emergency, the pilot takes-over and don't let the computer to tell him what to do.

On the other side, I remember the case of A-600 at Nagoya airport (I was at that time in Japan) that came to land with the "Auto-land" system engaged and the "computer" pulled the nose up to 45º (according to the flight data recorder) at 200'~300'....it was too late to recover from the stall....Yeap, it was - "Peeeeee, game over" for him (or them).

KM
Yes, it's still the safest way to travel......when somebody was asking us, "Do you have any scary moments in flight" we were answering "Oh yes...driving back home".

As for the accident survey, I read the UK SHE ones and most - if not all - of the cases where "operator error" that's the reason that in UK there are safety regulations that I'm not sure you have them in AU - like;
-The blade must stop within 10 seconds
- Dado blades are prohibited
BTW, is the riving knife mandatory in AU...here it is from the 60th~70th

As for retrofit....I still think that I (but it's only me) would not spend the money even on the retrofit.
Just go through my posts on the table saw...I made a few fixtures/aids that keeps my hands so far from the blade that I feed the wood almost by "remote control".

You are correct. Sawstop did not say that they solved the "Kickback" but I mentioned it because it's still a very common accident on the table saw....you see, to save my fingers I use correct methods that keeps my fingers far from the blade (or in other words, I can control it) but, against kickback, nobody is immune and it can happen any time without any warning.

Please read again what I wrote...I did NOT compare a $1000 saw to sawstop....I said that if I was a beginner that have $4000 what I would prefer to buy...Oh, and btw, I worked 10 years on one of those $200 bench saw and it also gave me very good accuracy...depends how you set it.

And yes, you are correct....not everybody can buy Jaguar like not everybody can buy a sawstop.

You said "really most your post seems to be about money"...yeap you are correct...still, for most of the thinks that we want - we have to pay with "Money"...

Now let's put the things open on the table......this guy (I think - Gass) had a very good idea and he tried to sell it to the American TS's Mfr's but, he demanded too much "Money" so they refused...so he tried to "Force" it on the market by legislating the sawstop....of course it was not for "Money", it was because he felt so sorry for people that are cutting their fingers and he wanted to legislate it just to save the fingers of many woodworker.....he did not want a penny for himself...(just that he had the "patent" and it costs M....correct...)
There is a very long thread on WoodNet forum between Grizzly and Gass (yeap, he appeared himself) and "Papa Grizzly" told him and us the truth....everything was about "Money"....
Do you still think that I AM the only one that thinks about "Money"...I think that also you know very good that nobody makes something for "my beautiful eyes", everything in our planet is made "to make money"...

I'll just repeat myself......The sawstop is a very good first as a TS and, the sawstop feature makes it even better but the BIG IRONY is that amateurs and beginners that need it the most, cannot afford it.

As I said - "Medicine for rich"....you have money - you can get a sawstop......you don't have money - continue to cut your fingers......tough world isn't it....

If I was "registered business" I would probably by Felder or Altendorf slider (for other, it might be sawstop even though it doesn't fit the EU safety regulations).
I don't know the tax law in AU but here, we get tax return for anything that we buy for the business so in total, it's cheaper but, for "all the others" - no tax return...

niki

I don't recall any case that the computer saved the airplane maybe because we must remember that behind every computer, there is an operator...usually, in case of emergency, the pilot takes-over and don't let the computer to tell him what to do.

So there are no cases you are aware of where some sort of computer guidance system or collision avoidance system has saved an aeroplane? None at all? And you say you've spent how many hours in the air? Are you saying you're a pilot or just that you fly a lot?

There's nothing particularly new in your argument that hasn't been debated ad nauseum further up. If I can sum up your argument: technology that might save injury is not worth paying for because it might not work. You subscribe to Murphy's law: it will fail when you most need it. Do I have that right?

You also seem to be suffering a bit from the same dislike of the inventor that colours some other people's views. You should put that aside, it has nothing to do with whether the saw is a good investment or whether it will make woodworking safer.

Sawstop didnt go far enough, I had an accident this weekend, I grabbed the fence and dragged it to the right and my fourth finger fell into the mitre slot and the fence carried on.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowl.

Hi Bob

Sorry, I did not see your reply but only after posting mine.

Yes, the companies are building the airplanes with many computers but for one reason - to remove a lot of the workload on the pilots...

On the older airplanes, there was a navigator and flight engineer....

When the INS (Inertial Navigation System) came out to the market (from NASA's Appolo project), the navigator was "dropped" and only 3 crew members remained in the cockpit.

Because of the so fast advance of the computer technology, the makers could "pack" all the flight engineer instrument panel and work into a small computer chip and by that, offer cheaper operation (two pilot cockpit) that attracted the airlines....so, the flight engineer also left the cockpit.

The two pilots are required for emergency cases and in case "incapacitation" of one of the pilots.

Most of the computers in the airplane are to make it easy on the pilots...I mean, if you'll take for example, one engine has about 10 or more instruments that have to be watched all the flight...nowadays, the computer is "watching" that the engine is working properly and if the limitations are acceded, the computer will "issue" a warning to the pilots but...the computer will not take any action, that's the pilots job, as somebody said "the computer doesn't have brain so -you shall have to use yours".

Just Imagine that two pilots had to watch all the airplane systems like Engines, electric, air-condition & pressurization, fuel system and many other small or sub systems on top of the navigation, radio communication and watching around outside for 8 hours or so, they would be "on their four" by the time of landing that is one of the most...I would not say dangerous but the pilots need all the "Powers" at this phase of the flight..

So the computers are to remove a lot of workload from the pilots, navigation and for the "Auto-land systems" that lets the airplane to land even if the visibility is Zero and the cloud is on the ground (actually - fog) that saves the airlines a lot of money.

But, in any case of Abnormal/Emergency, the pilots are "taking-over".

niki

I suppose the simplest flight analogy would be the parachute. The pilot relies on his skill and experience as a pilot to keep his plane in the air. In the event that something unexpected happens (like he is shot down by an enemy pilot), he has his parachute to save his life. There is still a chance that the chute wont open and he will still be killed, but without it he has NO chance of survival. The presence of the chute does not make him fly more recklessly, it does not lessen the risks associated with flying, and it is not 100% guaranteed to work - but if you ever have to jump out of a plane without one, you will regret your decision not to buy one.

Hi SilentC

Now that you mentioned the TCAS (Traffic Collision Alert System) I do remember one case in Hokkaido that it saved us from collision and it was in a cloud that we could not even see the traffic....and I never said that I'm or was a pilot...

I think that maybe because of my poor English, you missed my point....I repeat, "The sawstop is a very good first as a TS and, the sawstop feature makes it even better but the BIG IRONY is that amateurs and beginners that need it the most, cannot afford it".

Do you see here; "technology that might save injury is not worth paying for because it might not work. You subscribe to Murphy's law: it will fail when you most need it. Do I have that right?"

I don't dislike the inventor (well, maybe a little bit...I don't like somebody pushing on me his invention and if you remember the ez dino...it was an "American Bashing", same, because many people don't like that one is telling them what "you should buy for your money" and even try to legislate it so, you want it or not - you'll buy it)

I mentioned all the story in WoodNet just because KM said that for me "everything is money" so, I just put the story there to show that for other people also "everything is money"...

Regards
niki.

Yes, niki, it is a pity that the sawstop technology can only be obtained with a sawstop saw.
However, the car analogy is still the best - I know I would not buy a car without seat belts and air bags, even if the law did not require them and even if it added a thousand dollars to the price compared to the equivalent car without them. Would you?

And manufacturing and capitalism being what they are, once enough people buy sawstop, then sawstop prices will reduce as economies of scal arise in order for the sawstop manufacturer to obtain more market share while other manufacturers will need to offer that feature or an equivalent to stop losing market share.

Hi Jeremy

The small difference - as I see it - is that when you drive a car, you cannot control all the situations, you depend a lot on what other drivers can do to you while, working on a machine like a TS, I can control all the situations or at least take and make such a precautions that will give me almost zero risk...

If one just puts the blade guard and riving knife on, and keep his hands "far, far and away" from the blade or, in short, just obey the safety regulations and use correct technique, he can reduce the risk to near zero...

And I don't accept the argument of "but there are times that you must remove the blade guard"...as they say in UK - if you must remove the blade guard (or crown guard as they call it) and the riving knife for ANY operation, it means that you are not using the "correct machine for the correct job"...

As for the "prices will drop"...ok, I'll wait (not me but in general)

Regards
niki

we can go round and round with the analogies (some are quite funny) the fact is if you have money you have the best of the best thats down the line, medicine, kids schools, cars, houses, ect ect in fact its proven you live longer but you are dealt what you are dealt.

the point I'm trying to make is don't judge the saw on what it costs judge against other saws in the same category

i also disagree strongly with its for beginners and armatures. I'm sorry that just way off the mark

i read an American WW mag a few years back when they were trying to put this in all saws the figure was $300 (it could be more or less but wasn't thousands ill try and dig it out ) extra IMO thats nothing and i wonder why it wasn't done

although you say you wouldn't retrofit one if they were cheap and you could do this. i believe you probably havn't thought through this and your emotion about this devise and its creator may be clouding your judgment

km

Oh no, I don't have any emotions, I said that - I - would not retrofit because I feel safe enough with my TS set-up...

And, you are correct, you have money - you have the best of the best....Felder, Altendorf and alike...

Personally, I don't agree with you that beginners and "weekend warriors" don't need this technology IMO, they are the one with least experience and are high in the list to have an accident...As I read somewhere, many schools are buying this saw and probably they know why....

niki

niki

I think the "I control the situation" argument is one of the great fallacies that is propounded in this argument. Unless you are working only alone and no-one can interupt you and nothing can go wrong at all then situations can arise which can distract or upset you so that your control is broken.

Leaving aside the possibility of people coming into your workshop and distracting you or in real workshops of fellow-workers ' skylarking' with the same result, what happens to your concentration and control if a water pipe bursts , a light bulb pops or a power tool catches fire while the table saw is running? In each of these cases you will have lost complete control and the risk of accidentally putting your hand into the spinning blade goes up. You are never in complete control.

The issue is not one of control, it is of the balance of risk and cost.You can minimize risk by good practices. And you should. But you cannot eliminate risk. So it is then a question of what your response is to the residual risk after you have minimised it. My answer is that I will save up some more for Sawstop. You can choose another route. Your choice and you may get away with it, but don't seek my sympathy when you cut off your finger when you are distracted because the guy next door drives his car into a tree which falls on your shed roof and you fall over trying to avoid the branch, slip and put your hand into the TS blade.

Hi Jeremy

Of course I cannot talk for every one but only for myself...

My methods of working on the table saw are such that, even if I'll be distracted, my hands are so far from the blade that I can just leave the workpiece on the table (even with the blade running) and tell the guy...never distract me again when I work on a machine...usually, my left hand is "unused" and the right one is with 700mm push stick or shoe.

Usually, I work alone with the garage door closed (less noise for the neighbors) so, nobody, except my wife (and she knows) can distract me....of course if you work in "multi-people" environment, it's different but that means that you are not beginner or amateur and the "boss" should have the money to buy a sawstop to protect his employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have the impression that you are talking about one that is not using the blade guard because, as you can see on Waldo's thread "Better blade guard for TS10HB", I think that Waldo's guard and my guard (please look at my reply) do not leave so much room for the hands to get in contact with the blade even in case of distraction unless...one is pushing his hand deliberately under the guard....

Interestingly, I also use your comment "Don't seek my sympathy when you cut off your finger"(well, I use a little bit different words) when I reply to somebody that does not use the riving knife, blade guard and push stick/shoe.

Wow, what's the "chain reaction" you made there with the "car into the tree.......etc.

Regards
niki

Originally Posted by jmk89

... when you are distracted because the guy next door drives his car into a tree which falls on your shed roof and you fall over trying to avoid the branch, slip and put your hand into the TS blade.

But how will the Sawstop save you from the herd of elephants that trample you after being spooked by your next door neighbor almost running then down with his car. Your analogy is probably as likely to happen as the Sawstop NOT triggering while severing your fingers.

BTW all this Sawstop stuff if irrelevant if the saw you want/need is a panel saw. As I understand it you can only get Sawstop in a cabinet or contractor saw varieties.

Niki

I agree with all you say concerning reducing risk - better guards are a start as are riving knives and push sticks and shoes. But you say that these "do not leave so much room" - that means that there is some room - so the accident can still happen. T

he issue is how much you are prepared to pay for the last line of defence that Sawstop provides. I reckon that for everyone there is a price that makes that last line worthwhile . For me, that price point is somewhere between $1000 and $1500. When the saw I would otherwise buy is only $1000 cheaper than SawStop, I will buy Sawstop.

The other point is that I have two young children in my house, so I always assume that if the worst can happen it will. That means that even if I tell them not to come into the workshop when the saw is running or if I am not there, they might still manage to do it or do something else that would be dangerous. If I was only thinking about my own safety I still might not be so concerned, but their safety is paramount.

Vernon

I agree that if you want a panel saw, you can't get one now with Sawstop. But that doesn't mean that you can't want one. Until this year you couldn't get a contractor saw with it. So what are you going to do when there is a top of the range panel saw that also has sawstop and that costs $2000 than the equivalent without it?