Thread: Table saw conundrum size/space/purpose

Picking up your key issues / needs

Originally Posted by SPF

I don't currently have anything that will allow me to make consistent square cuts to large pieces of material (ply, mdf, chipboard, and laminated solid timber) so I'm looking at a table saw.
The problem I have is that I don't have space for a proper cabinet saw,

anything I get will need to be packed up and stored in the limited space I have when its not being used.
At a stretch I could get a contractor type saw if the table could be broken down.



None of these options are going to give me a big enough rip distance to the fence, so I am considering making a large sliding table to suit.

The other work that I will use this for (long term) will be much smaller, and I would prefer to have accuracy and adjustability over anything else.

Also, if you think there is a better option I'm happy to hear it.

IMO the best option for breaking down sheets of material that can be packed up and stored in a limited space is a track saw -- there's several well known brands, but if you stump up for the Festool option, you can combine it with Festool's MFT and get a very versatile, if expensive, system that will do everything you need for a reno except easily rip 4x2s. If you want to go this route I'd suggest the following kit
TS55 saw + vac + 1400 guide rail ($2400) + 2700 guide rails ($550) + MFT ($1300) -- as I said not cheap, and you might want to think about using the cordless version of the TS55.
IMO the MFT kit is brilliant for cross cutting anything narrower than about 650 mm
If you're thinking of making your own adjustable shelving, I'd substitute one of the standard guide rails for an equivalent length one drilled for the 32 mm system.


I suggest you forget about any option that involves "breaking down" a machine or sliding table or extension table between uses. Setting the machine or table up to use and then tearing it down to store will take up so much of your time -- assembling, checking for level and accuracy, etc -- that you will never get any real work done. Even taking the wings off a contractor saw involves removing the rails which support the rip fence.


longer term and for small scale work -- I'd lean towards something like a DeWalt 7480 or 7491. They are similar to the Bosch GTS10, but IMO the DeWalt's have a much better fence. As far as I know, none of these saws will accept a dado blade, but do you really need one?
A believe a few Forumites have these size saws and are happy with their performance.

Ian thanks for your reply.

I have had a look at the Festool, its an amazing piece of equipment (that you pay for admittedly) - it is a good suggestion. My only real concern with it is getting some efficiency doing repetitive equal size cuts for drawer fronts, shelves etc. I figure that the table saw will be better for this.

Thanks for pointing out the difficulty of breaking down a machine - that is definitely a problem I'll have to look at more.

If anyone has one of the DeWalt saws you mentioned, I'd like to hear their thoughts on them.

I have no need for a dado blade.

Over the past 10 years I've broken down sheet material using a contractors style table saw, three different Altendorf panel saws, the Festool track saw, and a cordless circular saw with straight edge.
Far and away the best machine is an Altendorf (or similar) European style sliding table saw. Far and away it can't be beaten -- no ifs no buts. But you don't have the space.

The next best option is the Festool on its guide rail, followed by the cordless circ saw and straight edge.
The contractors style table saw is a distant 4th.

for repetitive cuts for shelves and drawer fronts the MFT kit and track saw is almost as good as a sliding table euro saw. Not as fast and effortless as the Altendorf, but close. Efficiency with repetitive cuts on an MFT is mostly about setting guides so that stuff remains square and then stops so you don't have to measure each piece.

However, if you are planning on using significant quantities of Melamine board, minimising or dealing with chipped edges is a major issue that, if I were in your position, would steer me towards dedicating the space required for a small Euro style sliding table saw with a scribing blade (SCM, Felder and Hammer come to mind) or the Festool.


The other issue you haven't raised is dust control.
Unless you're always cutting in the open, this has to be dealt with otherwise your reno will perpetually be full of dust.

Ian,
Thanks again, that's very helpful. Maybe the renovation includes building another shed now.

The dust issue is taken care of, I have both high volume and high vacuum extractors that will be used to deal with this.

Think about a vertical panel saw, it takes up next to no room and there have been a lot of simpler ones built by home users.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=v...w=1093&bih=534

Originally Posted by ian

The next best option is the Festool on its guide rail, followed by the cordless circ saw and straight edge.
The contractors style table saw is a distant 4th.

I have seen the Festool gear in the hands of some really skilled people that produce excellent work wherever they set up. But I have to admit that I didn't believe you about the speed until today - I went and got a demo from a builder I know. It is really fast and the accuracy is excellent once you take the 10 minutes to make sure all the elements are set properly. I also rang a friend of mine (another builder) and asked if anyone he knew had one of the DeWalt saws mentioned above. He did and I could hear it going in the background on the phone so went to the site they were working to have a look. The results were fine for general construction work but not for finishing work - as you suggested. I think this could be overcome by setting the fence and any mitre guage on another table surface/frame and then mounting the saw into it. However, if I buy a saw I'd like it to be able to provide straight, square results with its own fence and mitre. No one I know has the Bosch.

Originally Posted by ian

For repetitive cuts for shelves and drawer fronts the MFT kit and track saw is almost as good as a sliding table euro saw. Not as fast and effortless as the Altendorf, but close. Efficiency with repetitive cuts on an MFT is mostly about setting guides so that stuff remains square and then stops so you don't have to measure each piece.

That was proven to me today too.

Originally Posted by ian

However, if you are planning on using significant quantities of Melamine board, minimising or dealing with chipped edges is a major issue that, if I were in your position, would steer me towards dedicating the space required for a small Euro style sliding table saw with a scribing blade (SCM, Felder and Hammer come to mind) or the Festool.
.

Apparently the Festool had a blade that had been used for more than 10 days of work, so was not brand new (but admittedly now well used either). It cut the melamine pretty well but there were a few chips regardless of how much depth the blade was set at. I'm looking into what blades are available.

Ian, thanks again for the response.

Chris, thanks for the reply.

I have seen these - some really crude, others are immaculate. Do you know if the home built ones have achieved acceptable accuracy?

I'm not scared of building an adjustable sliding rail for the saw, but if the concept has any inherent limitations it would be good to know before spending any more time on designing/fabricating one.

I have a Felder combination machine with the small 1.2 m sliding table and also the Festool track saw with a number of track lengths. I rarely use the Felder anymore for sheet goods. The track saw is much quicker and easier for me to use, especially since I work alone and manhandling a sheet of 19 mm ply onto the table saw is a struggle. Festool aren't the only brand of track saw though. Makita makes one which is probably just as good! For cutting repetitive pieces there are various types of parallel guide available that make it very quick and accurate.

Leigh


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I haven't built one but there are some simple ones shown in the link. A sheet of ply on a well dimensioned hardwood frame and a fence for the sheet to rest on sounds simple enough. Most I think use a cable connected counterbalance to make it easier to move the saw. I have used a Festool track saw a lot and found it was a pain to cut dead square and judging by all the nifty gadgets you can buy to help with that it is a common problem. I could not believe the mucking around needed to achieve dead square and there is no way I would do a big job with just a track saw, the time wasted would be huge. It is easy to cut close but if you want a result that a fence on a saw can give you be prepared to be patient. A small Euro slider will save you hours and if you need to would be very easy to sell after the job. The outrigger can be removed for storage and if that is done the operating area needed is no bigger than a cabinet saw and in the case the static footprint of mine is way smaller than my previous cabinet saw and the infeed and outfeed of both is the same.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

For cutting repetitive pieces there are various types of parallel guide available that make it very quick and accurate.

Leigh


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

My point right there, it ain't as simple as throwing the track on a sheet and cutting. My process with the slider is rough cut a 2400 sheet in half or to the dimension I want on the floor and then put it on the slider but if I have a helper then we cross cut on the slider. Mine is 1400 total table travel.

For anyone else that is looking at a table saw:

I went to Hare & Forbes today to look at the ST-254. I first saw (haha) the SB-12 so thought I'd check it out while I was there. As per this video review (which is helpful) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOTCANGhp8 there is a weird pause in the lift mechanism of the blade. This has to be a bad design or bad manufacturing process for it to be a consistent problem. The saw is not well built and there is unacceptable rattle in the blade/arbor.

I then checked out the Hafco ST-254 which was marginally better build and to be honest for the price is probably okay once you tighten everything up and take time setting the fence, etc. The blade is smaller, but everything else works and moves as you'd expect. Its not awesome, but seems like an okay option. The benefit of this model is that the Rip - a - fence clamps at both ends and as set up in the store, was within half a mm of being square across its length - there is limited adjustment that can be done.

The standout in terms of quality and price was the ST-12D for $2,035. Good quality flat table, the fence rails are huge and it uses a biesemeyer style t-square. The general finish and feel of the controls was far better than the others. Unfortunately the fence does move a little when pressure is applied, but I couldn't work out if this was because the slide hadn't been fully adjusted or from deflection in the fence extrusions. It doesn't have an integrated sliding table, but there are accessories for it. However, given the amount of slop and rattle in the mechanism, I don't know that I'd spend the money on the sliding table - I think some modified material roller tables would provide a better solution if set up alongside the saw.

I hope that is useful for someone.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

My point right there, it ain't as simple as throwing the track on a sheet and cutting. My process with the slider is rough cut a 2400 sheet in half or to the dimension I want on the floor and then put it on the slider but if I have a helper then we cross cut on the slider. Mine is 1400 total table travel.

Yeah, Festool make great tools and find new and amazing ways for you to spend money on the system that you have just bought into. Like Ian mentioned above, once you buy all the bits the price really adds up, but on the plus side you can get everything you need.

I had an S12D and finished up shortening the rails I got so sick of walking around it! I never resolved the problem of the fence moving a slight amount when it was clamped either, not a lot just enough to annoy me. If the budget allows I would be looking at a Minimax slider or a Hammer but the MM was cheaper the last time I looked, these are completely different animal to any cabinet "slider" as the sliding table is adjacent to the blade not separated from it by the table.

The track saw amazed and disappointed me, on one hand it was a dead straight cut but I expected it to give me the same tolerance cut of a cabinet/slider saw and I was very quickly P'd off when I saw the amount of stuffing around it took to get anywhere near that and I must admit I gave up on the whole deal. It is a really good system for site work but chippies have a different idea of what is accurate to me and if I was a chippie it would be the first tool I would buy after a cordless drill.