Thread: Table saw recommendations...again...Harvey HW110LGE-30??

I can't speak "first hand", but in my mind, the Sherwood (which appears to be the in-house brand for Timbecon) appear to me to be on par with the Carbatec branded units sold by Carbatec.

Nothing wrong with either of them, but my suspicion is that the Laguna/Harvey/SawStop units are a step above these in terms of quality, machining accuracy and so on. In fact, the unit you link to is a 2HP unit, and my understanding is that the Laguna/Harvey/SawStops are 3HP. This alone, especially when dealing with Australian hardwood timbers, is a big difference in machine capability.

Go up from these and you're into SCM, Minimax, Felder/Hammer units.

There might even be a step above them, but for us mere mortals, that's stratospheric territory

Don't know about timbecon's latest offerings but most of their stuff that I have seen appear to be inferior to Carbatec's offerings. By inferior i mean their cast iron tables are thinner, motor appears more generic Chinese (if thats possible) and fence systems feels cheap.

Now is this a bad thing? maybe maybe not as my Timbecon bandsaw is 15 years old and still works well enough for what i need it for. So at the end of the day it comes down to what you're willing to live with and how much you're willing to part and both will do the job and from my experience both seem to last.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Hi Ozcroz,

I can't argue with your logic, I definitely think the 3HP Powermatic is a much better option for the money than the 2HP Jet. This is a system that will at least provide adequate flow in an efficiently ducted system and if you enclose it in a cabinet as you say (either inside or outside) and have a vent to the outside you will avoid any fine-particle build-up issues.

Enclosing and venting outside will also help with the noise (it will be very loud!) so that's a big plus. The only down-side is that you lose the ability to actively heat or cool the shed as you'll be cycling the air out of the shop quite quickly.

Don't forget to think about duct layout and sizing to minimise resistance and maximise potential airflow. Ideally you want to stick with at least 6" ducting - forget about 4" ducting - it will severely limit your airflow. It's also therefore best to up-size the ports on your machines to 6" if possible. Don't feel pressured to do it immediately but it's best if you can do so sooner rather than later. Also, use the minimum amount of flex-hose possible, except where you really need it to connect to a machine. PVC pipe works well for the main lines - just buy it from a decent retailer that doesn't charge a fortune. A local plumbing shop charged me less than half of what Reece Plumbing or Bunnings charge for the various elbows, Y's and straight duct. Use large radius bends if possible and minimise the number of bends as much as possible - longer lengths of straight run will be far less restrictive than extra turns. If you want plenty of help and advice then start a thread in the dust-collection forum - people are pretty passionate about it!

I think you will have a great setup when you get it all installed and running! Not having a mess and not worrying about inhaling wood dust is something that you will never regret spending some upfront time, effort and money on IMHO. Enjoy!

Cheers,

Dom

Thanks Dom for your welcome advice. I thought that with the Powermatic I would be getting over double the filter area, which would significantly reduce air flow resistance for similar filtration media properties. Double the collection volume is also convenient and the extra HP has to help air movement. So despite setting back my table saw upgrade I thought that the Powermatic would be a good long term investment at that price. I agree that it is better to do the job right and not have to worry about dust inhalation.

I believe that the system has a remote control so keeping the unit inside would be convenient for ease of operation. So long term the option of building an in-shed vented cupboard for the DC system may be a good way to go. I have neither heating nor cooling in the shed apart from what the weather brings. So rapidly venting out the air from the shed does not worry me. On really hot days I tend to do something other than shed work. In all but the windiest weather I can work with a door of up to 3m open at either end of the shed. So I get good air flow.

To start with I will operate with the DC near an open door. I will assemble the Jointer and DC and get used to their operation. Looking forward to it.

Thanks for all your help.
Cheers, ozcroz. 😀

Good move on the powermatic.

Originally Posted by ozcroz

I thought that with the Powermatic I would be getting over double the filter area, which would significantly reduce air flow resistance for similar filtration media properties.

Flow resistance in a real DC system is primarily determined by the size of the ducting and the ability of machines to take in and expel air. Until filters are clogged they are a secondary factor in terms of air flow. My testing of pleated filters (PFs) showed that despite being double the area, even without any ducting connected, in they practice only add about 10% more flow than comparable size needlefelt filters. Even so the 10% extra flow helps and PFs have the added benefit that they do take longer to clog than needlefelt filters.

Double the collection volume is also convenient and the extra HP has to help air movement.

Extra HP doesn't contribute as much as people might think. For a given sized impeller if a less powered motor can safely turn the impeller without overheating then the larger size motor makes no difference to the flow.

So despite setting back my table saw upgrade I thought that the Powermatic would be a good long term investment at that price. I agree that it is better to do the job right and not have to worry about dust inhalation.

I agree that its a good investment as long as you near in mind that it is only 1/3 of the requirement - 6" ducting and opening up machines are essential to recoup the investment.

+1 for Sawstop. Saved my fingers quite a few times as well. Found an article reviewing table saws https://woodworkershq.com/saws/best-table-saw/

Originally Posted by Potato345

Found an article reviewing table saws https://woodworkershq.com/saws/best-table-saw/

Please be careful when locating "reviews" on websites. I am seeing an increasing tendency, especially with cheap domain names and cheap WordPress hosting going around, for people to register a relatively generic but related to a vertical market name (to give some examples that may or may not be real: woodworkersmachines.com, machinereviews.net etc).

The owner then trawls around the various places that sell this equipment online and sets up a deal where they get paid some kind of commission, spotters fee or percentage of the sale... Amazon with their affiliate links is one that comes immediately to mind.

They will then "review" the top "X" models... unfortunately, sometimes these reviews are biased toward the machine sales that pay the highest commission, and thus have nothing to do with the actual quality and features of the machine being "reviewed".

Sadly, this site seems to tick many of the boxes that contribute in my mind to one of these sorts of sites - and you may find these don't represent reasonable or independent, feature based and fact driven articles. Just a basic read through the (very short) page on table saws and blades reveals much incorrect - or, to be kind - incomplete information.

It might be better to find a review article at a recognised, and reasonably independent publishing source (WoodSmith, Fine Woodworking, Popular Woodworking etc).

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

Please be careful when locating "reviews" on websites. I am seeing an increasing tendency, especially with cheap domain names and cheap WordPress hosting going around, for people to register a relatively generic but related to a vertical market name (to give some examples that may or may not be real: woodworkersmachines.com, machinereviews.net etc).

I agree, most reviews on the web are worth less than what users pay for accessing them. Most reviews add little of value and just regurgitate the product specs which anyone can read for themselves on the product website. Reviews of duct collection devices would have be one of the worst around, the most common misconception being, if it looks like its working it must be working.

I'm also not always convinced by so called independent publishing sources like magazines. Sometimes the reviewer is given the product to keep by the manufacturer and of course do you think the reviewer will receive any more products to review from that manufacturer if they are critical of the product? A better scenario would be if the publisher independently purchases the product to be reviewed but then there is always the ever-present prospective advertising income stream lever lurking in the background.

Aside from what supposedly passes as a review and turns out to be a "what's in the box" vid, I find Youtube reviews can be more useful especially if the product is clearly demonstrated and talked about in detail by the reviewer. This give the viewer a chance to assess whether the reviewer has more than two brain cells and a couple of left thumbs and bias tendencies. Like most things this also requires some viewer experience ie you have to know something about the products in general to assess whether the reviewer is on the ball.

This is where these forums can help out by firstly offering alternate points of view and providing possible explanations for "why this might be so".

Agree with Midnight Man and Bob, here's an example of what happens when someone decides to post a review on the web that gains traction.

https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/dowel.html

Apparently if the product manufacturer/distributor doesn't like your review, you'll get a letter from their lawyers to take it down. I suspect this happens quite often therefore reviews that are on the web would be highly filtered and should be taken with a massive grain of salt.

Also what I'm finding out is that manufacturers appear to be quite desperate to get their name out and isn't that difficult to get freebie stuff sent to you for "review. I know of a few people who are not popular, or famous but are currently getting freebies purely because one of their posts on instagram got something like 1k likes.

Originally Posted by tonzeyd

Agree with Midnight Man and Bob, here's an example of what happens when someone decides to post a review on the web that gains traction.

Yes. When they can't win in the marketplace, they send in their filthy lawyers and threats of deep-pocket litigation. He SHOULD name them and he should make it prominent. They wanted to not only establish the rules, using a BS set of artificial constraints, but then cannot stand it even when the results didn't match their hyperbole.

Typical goddam Americans. When negotiations fail they start dropping the legal bombs.

Sounds a bit like the whole Sawstop saga, doesn't it?

Not surprised at all by the fake/paid reviews, companies pay big bucks for people to post “organic” reviews for their products. I can recall SawStop brigading some reddit communities about a year ago, it was painfully obvious that they weren’t genuine comments and they miraculously stopped once people made it known how obvious it was.

Originally Posted by BobL

Good move on the powermatic.
Flow resistance in a real DC system is primarily determined by the size of the ducting and the ability of machines to take in and expel air. Until filters are clogged they are a secondary factor in terms of air flow. My testing of pleated filters (PFs) showed that despite being double the area, even without any ducting connected, in they practice only add about 10% more flow than comparable size needlefelt filters. Even so the 10% extra flow helps and PFs have the added benefit that they do take longer to clog than needlefelt filters.

Extra HP doesn't contribute as much as people might think. For a given sized impeller if a less powered motor can safely turn the impeller without overheating then the larger size motor makes no difference to the flow.

I agree that its a good investment as long as you near in mind that it is only 1/3 of the requirement - 6" ducting and opening up machines are essential to recoup the investment.

Thanks BobL for the sound advice. Much appreciated

Interesting thread,

Cannot give an opinion on which is the better saw. As for which saw to get, in the end only you will make that decision and why. Which ever way you go don't be complacent in the use of the saw.

I have worked in the building industry for 40 years using a host of powered equipment, both fixed and portable. I'm pleased to say I've never had a close call. Mind you the more you use the greater the change I guess. I can remember as first year apprentice my first week, my boss showed me how to use a trenching head on a power saw. I can still see and remember what he said, don't ever put your finger or hand near the running blade, as he pointed to the blade just as it took half of the top bit of his index finger. He just made a mistake and put finger to close. Great lesson for me not so happy for the boss. GOT IT, I said.

If your fingers are worth the extra $$$ and your happy with the sawstop buy it and enjoy. Me, I feel I'm a bit over cautious so I'd buy the Harvey.

Good luck with your decision.