Thread: 16" Combination Planer Thicknesser Options

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Just remember that 4mm is the theoretical maximum. You might get it on narrow pieces but at full width the motor will struggle with more than 1mm and even that depth might be pushing it.

For sure. I'm seldom in a hurry so can't foresee many situations where I'd be wanting to hog material off that fast. Nice timber is expensive so I want to remove the smallest amount possible to yield flat stock.

I think I recall some posts where Derek et al were discussing current draw on the A3-31 and got the feeling that the "Silent Power" cutterblock is really efficient and these machines are well powered. Admittedly, the wider cutterblock on the A3-41 will allow the machine to be loaded up more than the A3-31, but I get the feeling that the machine will have ample power.

I wonder if there's any difference in surface quality between the spiral cutterblock on the Hammer machines to that of others? Based on the photos, the Silent Power cutterblock looks pretty special.

Originally Posted by uzzi

Not sure where you got that information from but the A4-31 3 phase comes with the 4KW (5.5hp) motor as standard and the single phase 3KW (4hp) is an option (info straight from the Felder aust website).

Thanks for the clarification uzzi, you're 100% correct. My apologies to Ian who correctly pointed this out.

At the end of the day, I'm sure the 3.0 kW motor will provide plenty of power - I'd like to think Hammer wouldn't provide that option if it didn't. When using the 12" Jet combo that I previously owned, which had a 2.2 kW motor, I never ran into issues regarding the power of the motor. So, I'd like to think that the Hammer will be sweet.

I think 3kw should be ok with spiral cutter block. my Robland was a single phase, and the cutter block was 410mm and it is a straight knife setup (Tersa). no issue cutting 2-3mm 400mm wide pine. but struggling to but 2mm Jarrah/Kwila at 300mm. you only cut a small section with the spiral cutter block, it should be ok.

Originally Posted by nhall

With respect, I don't think the underlying question has anything to do with the wiring in my workshop. I'm not trying to boil the ocean. I just want to get a 16" combo machine, have narrowed it down to a Woodman and a Hammer, and am trying to draw on the collective wisdom of other forum members who have experience with one or both of these machines.

I only mention checking your power supply as achieving adequate power availability at the shed outlets is an underlying factor in many discussions about shed upgrades.
Based on how I've interpreted the information you have supplied so far, you have a number of 10 Amp outlets in your shed.
The Hammer will require a dedicated 15 A outlet -- and if you have to run a new wire from your switch board for this outlet, you always have the option of running a heavier cable that would allow you to operate a 3 ph motor via a VFD which, to my mind, would be an option worth discussing.
Also, none of us know what the voltage drop is between your main switch board and the shed. Given the investment that a Hammer represents, I suggest you should ensure for yourself that you do have 240V at the shed outlets and not something like 220 V that could result in damage to a high current motor.

I also suggest you be a little cautious about reported performance of the different wide (~16") planners. You intentionally want to use the full width of the planner and jointer every time. For most users using the full width is a relatively rare occurrence.

Originally Posted by Albert

I think 3kw should be ok with spiral cutter block. my Robland was a single phase, and the cutter block was 410mm and it is a straight knife setup (Tersa). no issue cutting 2-3mm 400mm wide pine. but struggling to but 2mm Jarrah/Kwila at 300mm. you only cut a small section with the spiral cutter block, it should be ok.

A spiral cutter block requires more power to do the same amount of work that a straight knife setup would do. You wouldn't think so since the spiral is only in full contact of the board at one area across the width at any given time. But it is in full contact with the board 100% of the time so there is a constant load on the motor. Whereas with a straight knife setup running 2 knives, it is only in contact with the material twice (at best) with each revolution so it has time to build up momentum again to throw itself through the material. You can get around the power requirements by slowing the feed speed for spiral cutterheads, which is exactly what JET did with their JPT310-HH combo machine. The feed speed for the straight knife version is 7m/min, and the spiral version is 3.5m/min.

Great explanation Kuffy, and something I hadn't considered.

Originally Posted by ian

I only mention checking your power supply as achieving adequate power availability at the shed outlets is an underlying factor in many discussions about shed upgrades.
Based on how I've interpreted the information you have supplied so far, you have a number of 10 Amp outlets in your shed.
The Hammer will require a dedicated 15 A outlet -- and if you have to run a new wire from your switch board for this outlet, you always have the option of running a heavier cable that would allow you to operate a 3 ph motor via a VFD which, to my mind, would be an option worth discussing.
Also, none of us know what the voltage drop is between your main switch board and the shed. Given the investment that a Hammer represents, I suggest you should ensure for yourself that you do have 240V at the shed outlets and not something like 220 V that could result in damage to a high current motor.

I also suggest you be a little cautious about reported performance of the different wide (~16") planners. You intentionally want to use the full width of the planner and jointer every time. For most users using the full width is a relatively rare occurrence.

Hi Ian, thanks for the advice re: my power supply. I should have provided more information in relation to this. My shed has it's own 32A sub-panel and I have 2 15A outlets on their own breakers (which are actually 16A C curve breakers) plus a bunch of 10A outlets. I've measured my mains voltage at 242 V.

The specs on the Hammer machines actually call for a 20A supply, but measurements of an A3-31 conducted by an industrial sparky (see Hammer A3 31 Thicky/Jointer - a good machine, but buyer beware of certain aspects) indicate that, so long as appropriate breakers are installed, a 15A supply is likely to suffice.

Interestingly, my SawStop occasionally trips the 15A (C curve) breaker, but if I rotate the blade a quarter turn it starts no worries. I thought this was bizarre behaviour but there are a number of people out there who have experienced the same problem. The solution to this issue is to replace the breaker with a D curve device, which allows a much higher peak current.

As a matter of due diligence, I'm going to speak with my sparky and get a quote on installing 3 phase power. I suspect that this is going to be prohibitively expensive, but seeing that I can get the 5.5 HP 3 phase motor in the Hammer for slightly LESS cash than the 4 HP single phase motor, it would be silly not to make the enquiry.

I don't have any experience with VFDs... can you advise what they typically cost, and whether they present any significant complications? My thoughts are: if 3 phase installation is too costly at this point in time, but a VFD isn't too costly, then I would consider buying the 3 phase Hammer machine and running it through the VFD, thereby allowing an upgrade down the track. It might seem weird to invest in a new machine rather than split the investment between the power upgrade and a second hand machine, but I've been frustrated by my milling machinery for some time and I'm at the point where I just want to have something work out of the box, or at least with some set up by the Felder/Hammer techs.

In my original post, I didn't mean to give the impression that I only dimension wide stock. I work on a range of project and need to be able to dimension stock up to about 15" wide. With my current machinery, I can flatten one face with a hand plane and then use my thicknesser to do the rest. But, if I got a 12" combo, I'd be stuck; hence the the desire for a 16" combo.

Originally Posted by Kuffy

A spiral cutter block requires more power to do the same amount of work that a straight knife setup would do. You wouldn't think so since the spiral is only in full contact of the board at one area across the width at any given time. But it is in full contact with the board 100% of the time so there is a constant load on the motor. Whereas with a straight knife setup running 2 knives, it is only in contact with the material twice (at best) with each revolution so it has time to build up momentum again to throw itself through the material. You can get around the power requirements by slowing the feed speed for spiral cutterheads, which is exactly what JET did with their JPT310-HH combo machine. The feed speed for the straight knife version is 7m/min, and the spiral version is 3.5m/min.

There seems to be consensus that spiral cutterblocks require more power than their straight knife counterparts, with most claiming the difference to be about 25%. I'm happy to accept this, as there is enough empirical evidence to back it up. However, I've not seen a through explanation of the difference.

I would love to know what the different cutterblocks mean in terms of the dynamics of induction motors. My understanding of induction motors is that the torque produced is a function of slip - the speed difference between the magnetic field and the shaft. I wonder if the "constant" load of a spiral cutterblock results in less slip, and therefore less torque produced by the motor, than the "intermittent" load from a straight knife cutterblock. There's every chance that the motor dynamics have nothing to do with it and it's all about the cutting forces. In any case, the full explanation would be interesting.

Felder claim a 20% reduction in power consumption for their Silent Power cutterblock. I'm not sure if that reduction is compared to Felder's straight cutters or from a typical spiral cutterblock. In any case, based primarily on forum posts from users of the Hammer/Felder machines, I'm not too concerned about these machines being under powered.

An industrial electrician mentioned me to me that VFD to operate 3 phase motor with single phase supply is really bad for motors. Just thought I would mention as it might be worth looking into - I don't know anything about it.

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Originally Posted by nhall

I don't have any experience with VFDs... can you advise what they typically cost, and whether they present any significant complications? My thoughts are: if 3 phase installation is too costly at this point in time, but a VFD isn't too costly, then I would consider buying the 3 phase Hammer machine and running it through the VFD, thereby allowing an upgrade down the track.

I know very little about VFDs apart from them being one way to run a 3 phase motor from a single phase supply -- provided that supply can deliver enough Amps.
I think that along with dust control, BobL is a VFD guru.

Definitely go for the 3 phase model if you can (extra grunt is always a good thing) but beside the installation, 3 phase plugs, cable and the GPOs costs are also way more than single phase gear. The A3-41 comes ready for hardwiring but if you want plug n play, allow extra cash for additional cabling and plug.

Originally Posted by uzzi

Definitely go for the 3 phase model if you can (extra grunt is always a good thing) but beside the installation, 3 phase plugs, cable and the GPOs costs are also way more than single phase gear. The A3-41 comes ready for hardwiring but if you want plug n play, allow extra cash for additional cabling and plug.

I've just emailed my sparky to get a rough quote on 3 phase installation. I have a gut feeling that it will be beyond my budget.

I have a 18.5kw VFD servicing my 18.5kw wide belt sander. The sole reason for the VFD was to limit the inrush current. I only have 63amp in my workshop. the startup current of the 18.5kw motor is 5-7 times the full load current (think it is about 38amp). no issues so far. I had the sander and VFD for.... 5 years now.

Originally Posted by Albert

I only have 63amp in my workshop. the startup current of the 18.5kw motor is 5-7 times the full load current (think it is about 38amp).

But that'd be on a star-delta setup and, AFAIK, the star current works differently to the delta current.

I could start both heads at once on the sander at my old work (50hp combined) and both ammeters would spike up to 80A, even though we only had 100A total coming in to the factory and plenty of other things running at the same time.