Thread: New Workshop Fitout - Input Appreciated

get 3 phase power . it will allow you greater freedom as you expand

My opinion is that carbatec machines are not that great. Hafco will be made in the same factory probably. If you're wanting a small general hobby use pieces of equipment it'll do fine but a 20" thicknesser, i'd want something pretty decent for that. I currently own a carbatec 8" jointer, mostly because at the time, I was in a rush to purchase one but if I were to do it all again i'd wait for a nice older unit to pop up. +1 on the helical (not spiral) cutter heads. Really nice finish off of them. Haven't changed blades in 3 years and still get an excellent finish. All carbatec branded stuff has spiral heads where the cutters are still parallel to the rotation whereas helical cutters are slightly skewed I guess you could say so it's more of an angled shearing cut. Noticable difference between the two in my experience. I'm a big hand tool guy too, don't get me wrong. But certain jobs call for certain machines.

Supermax 25-50 is my drum sander of choice but because I use it for larger table tops and wider pieces whereas if you plan on doing end grain cutting boards a lot, the twin belt 25" probably suits you better.

No need to get 3 phase power VFD's will do it all these days. Got an old Brobo waldown drill press that was 3 phase running on a 10A 240v circuit. Got heaps of good features / benefits too. I plan on purchasing the 20" powermatic thicknesser which is 3 phase, that'll get its own VFD plus I plan on purchasing a clearvue cyclone that'll need one too, due to the three phase motor.

Originally Posted by hurcorh

No need to get 3 phase power VFD's will do it all these days. Got an old Brobo waldown drill press that was 3 phase running on a 10A 240v circuit. Got heaps of good features / benefits too. I plan on purchasing the 20" powermatic thicknesser which is 3 phase, that'll get its own VFD plus I plan on purchasing a clearvue cyclone that'll need one too, due to the three phase motor.

As some members may know I'm a big fan of Single Phase to 3Phase VFDs (I have 12 in my shed) and while they offer many benefits they do have some limitations.
Single Phase to 3Phase VFDs are good to about 5HP. These can't be used from a 10A or even 15A SP - they really should be on their own 20A circuit/breaker.

Some older machine use motors that are fixed 415V delta machines that can't be converted to 240V delta. Not all motors are stand alone and are built into the machine so they cannot be swapped out without major surgery.

Good point on the old motors Bob. Don't think he'll be needing more than 5hp for anything.

Originally Posted by Putty

Hi All,

So having got nowhere with any enquiry regarding parts for the Triton TPT15 I have decided to bite the bullet and overhaul the workshop. I have a budget of $8000 and for that money I want to purchase a thicknesser, drum sander and quality dust extractor. Also get my sparky to run some 15/20 amp outlets to the shop which he has assured me will be a piece of cake.

Surprise surprise, I am comparing Carbatec and Hafco products as I believe they are going to give me the best bang for buck. Keep in mind that up until December last year when I picked up the now deceased Triton I was thicknessing everything with an inaccurate router sled and then sanding with my belt sander --> ROS --> hand, so while a Jet would be ideal, I think anything is going to be a major upgrade and something someone at my level will really appreciate.

Thicknesser
Carbatec 20" Deluxe (Link) - 3 year warranty, 3hp, 15A plug, solid mobile base, $2899
Hafco T20 (Link) - 2 year warranty, 3hp, 20A plug, no mobile base, $2849

Drum Sander
Carbatec 25" Twin Drum (Link) - 3 year warranty, 3hp, no mobile base, $2899
Hafco DS-25 Twin Drum (Link) - 2 year warranty, 3hp, no mobile base, $2849

Dust Extractor
Carbatec Twin Bag (Link) - 2 year warranty, 2.8hp, mobile, 2300cfm, $579
Hafco Twin Bag (Link) - 2 year warranty, 2.8hp, mobile, 2300cfm, $539

Assuming I go with the Carbatec options the total comes to $6377. That leaves me enough to organise delivery, buy some spare bags, filters, knives and sanding wraps. If there's not enough left to run the 15/20A upgrade after all that then so be it, I'll shell out a little more for that.

I'm a little surprised that neither drum sander is on castors, given the weight of them. It's not a deal breaker but it would have been handy. I know you can purchase universal mobile bases, I got one for my Hafco bandsaw, but it was hard enough lifting the ~120kg saw into the base - forget about trying to wrangle a 240kg drum sander into one. From what I can see the machines are all very likely to be clones of each other, but the Carbatec variants have the better warranty period which is important to me.

Regarding the power I will only ever be operating the thicknesser OR drum sander in conjunction with the extractor at any given time - I'll confirm with my sparky but is there anything special I need to be aware of if I am getting a single 15A circuit run to the shop? Is it better to get him to run 20A, even if I end up going with the Carbatec products which are only 15A, just for piece of mind, or do I need two 15A circuits to spread the load?

Ultimately I would love to hear from anyone on their experiences with any of the above products. I make a lot of end grain cutting boards (no, I don't feed them through the thicknesser don't worry), and I am starting to branch out into benchtops and coffee tables and other small bits of furniture. I would ideally have a helical or spherical TC cutterhead in the thicknesser, but if I go with that I drop back from a 20" to a 15", and that extra 5" really opens up my options, not to mention if I'm able to sand 25" at a time I don't want to be drastically limited in what I can plane. Thoughts on that?

Thanks everyone for your input

Anthony

Hi Anthony.
Firstly, you're right to ditch the Triton idea. Awful things.
With regards to the Carbatec / Hafco questions: they're both quite good, I've owned machines from both brands in the past and can comment with confidence that they ALL have one shortcoming, and that is the power to deal with Australian hardwoods. My understanding, after a lifetime in the industry, is that these are re-sellers of generic products for a global market. Indeed, I suspect neither Carbatec nor Hafco make anything at all, but slap stickers on these generic products in order to give them some manufacturing status.(I've seen identical products with different brand names on, "Sherwood" for example). So, why does this relate to power? Well, the North American market is collossal. The USA and Canada have a massive "hobbyist" market who have some disposable income to buy big boys toys in the shape of quasi professional machinery, and this machinery is largely used on SOFTWOODS. A 15" pine board through a 3HP Carbatec 'CT380 is easy-peasy, but try a 15" Jarrah or Spotted Gum board and the difference is HUGE!. (the lights in my workshop actually go dim when I used to boot up my single phase CT380, even before I put anything through it!
My solution? Go 3 phase Industrial, but second hand. In the last couple of years I've patiently scoured gumtree/ quokka / small ads/ shed sales and auctions and have completely fitted out a full joinery shop with the following - 16" Robinson Jointer with 8' bed $300, 30" Robinson Bandsaw $300, 3.6m Sicar Panel saw with electronic rise/fall/tilt main blade, scribe blade and CNC fence $1200, 24" Leda Thicknesser (admittedly, I hate it) $200, L'invincible Combination Spindle moulder / Ripsaw with crosscut sliding bed $200, Wolfenden Chain and Chisel morticer $375, and lastly, an awful 3HP (generic) twin bag 3phase mobile dust extractor for $150, (I hate this as well, but it could suck start a Jumbo Jet). In all, there's little I can't do with ANY Australian hardwoods, and I haven't spent much over 4 grand yet. Critically, the only item i feel struggles on power is the 24" LEDA Thicknesser which at 4hp again is designed for pine boards in the li'l o'l US of A. (struggles like hell with any Aussie wide material. Interestingly, all of these are quite old, but bulletproof, nothing has ever gone on any of my machines at all, nothing. My old Carbatec Thicknesser was just recently sold, after ten years use for more than I paid for it new, so can't complain, bloody bulletproof construction, but poor power.
That's my two-penneth good luck mate!
Peter

G'day all,

Firstly thank you everyone for your input. I understand there is a great spectrum of woodworkers on this forum ranging from complete newcomers to seasoned hobbyists, and apprentices to veteran tradespeople, so getting such a volume of answers from this range has been enlightening.

I took a lot of time to consider all the factors (noise/space/length of tenancy at current home/budget) and I ultimately decided that going to 3 phase was ideal, but not practical in that we are looking at moving onto a rural property within 5-10 years, where my partner tells me part of the build budget will be set aside for a commercial mill complete with 3 phase power, fit for purpose shed with all the trappings, etc. Yes I have hit the jackpot with this woman, and I am grateful for it every day. Furthermore operating out of a double garage means fitting 3 phase level machinery in would be near impossible, for the variety of machines I am talking about. I could probably do it, but then I would have no room for timber, or to swing the timber around from one machine to the next.

Because I took a personal loan to finance this workshop upgrade I was more concerned about maintaining product warranty for the length of the loan, so buying second hand, while something I generally embrace (better to buy a 5 year old top of the line than a brand new entry-mid level) was not possible. Also where I live there's not a huge market of second hand machinery, and I was really keen to get everything sorted in one hit.

What I ended up going with was a 15" spiral head thicknesser, 40/80 single barrel drum sander, 6" planer jointer, 10" induction table saw and a twin bag, 3hp dust extractor. This on top of the 2hp bandsaw, mitre saw, router sled and dedicated sanding/routing bench. I already had a basic 500cfm dusty which has been dedicated to the drum sander, and the jointer, table saw and thicky all connect to the dust extractor. Because I am working in such a small area I am only using very short lengths of hose, so very little suction is lost. I also have blast gates fitted. Even without the blast gates it hauls . Very impressed.

As far as power goes I've got my sparky coming in tomorrow for the day to run a 50A sub-main to the workshop - having an isolated, protected breaker board is a lovely thought. He's going to wire the big dusty into the panel and fit an easy to access switch for it so I don't need to reach through everything to turn it on and off, everything will be powered by pendant switches to keep the floor clear and generally provide a professional environment, and he's putting in two 2400 lumen LED banks to replace the two 600 lumen globes I currently have.

To say that I am excited is an understatement. I also went out and bought $300 worth of new good quality sash clamps to replace the crappy ones I had been destroying for the last 6 months. Will let you know how it goes.

Cheers!

Hi Putty,
I have had experience with several Carbatec thicknessers mostly with the 15" that I fitted with a USA Byrd Helical head. I agree with previous comments regarding 3 hp as even on the 15 inch machine I had to do a major refit to install a 5Hp single phase motor. For the past 18 months I have been using a 16" TH-410 Woodfast thicknesser with a helical head and a 3hp motor without any issues. (This machine is widely used in the UK and EUR under the Axmimister brand.)Also agree with comments about dust extraction as I have been using a 3hp Carbetec two stage cyclone machine for several years and find this excellent .(Carbatec Two Stage Dust Cyclone - 3hp | Dust Extractors - Carbatec) I my own workshop I also use a Minimax SC-2 panel saw for sguare edging all my wood and a Hammer N4400 fitted with a 1.3TPI blade for all resawing and a 6tpi blade for other work. For sanding I use a 1200x 150 mm belt sander as well as a 2500x 180mm belt sander. I do have a Carbatec 15" wide belt sander but have not used it and plan to sell it. At my wood group we use a Powermatic Jointer and a Powermatic 20" thicknesser both with helical heads but these are both 3 phase units . In summary a good saw,Band saw,thicknesser/jointer and a large belt sander (edge sander where the table is set in the horizontal position enabling wider articles to be moved across the belt) with a good dust system is my preferred option.
Cheers,
Paintman

Originally Posted by Putty

Hi All,

So having got nowhere with any enquiry regarding parts for the Triton TPT15 I have decided to bite the bullet and overhaul the workshop. I have a budget of $8000 and for that money I want to purchase a thicknesser, drum sander and quality dust extractor. Also get my sparky to run some 15/20 amp outlets to the shop which he has assured me will be a piece of cake.

Surprise surprise, I am comparing Carbatec and Hafco products as I believe they are going to give me the best bang for buck. Keep in mind that up until December last year when I picked up the now deceased Triton I was thicknessing everything with an inaccurate router sled and then sanding with my belt sander --> ROS --> hand, so while a Jet would be ideal, I think anything is going to be a major upgrade and something someone at my level will really appreciate.

Thicknesser
Carbatec 20" Deluxe (Link) - 3 year warranty, 3hp, 15A plug, solid mobile base, $2899
Hafco T20 (Link) - 2 year warranty, 3hp, 20A plug, no mobile base, $2849

Drum Sander
Carbatec 25" Twin Drum (Link) - 3 year warranty, 3hp, no mobile base, $2899
Hafco DS-25 Twin Drum (Link) - 2 year warranty, 3hp, no mobile base, $2849

Dust Extractor
Carbatec Twin Bag (Link) - 2 year warranty, 2.8hp, mobile, 2300cfm, $579
Hafco Twin Bag (Link) - 2 year warranty, 2.8hp, mobile, 2300cfm, $539

Assuming I go with the Carbatec options the total comes to $6377. That leaves me enough to organise delivery, buy some spare bags, filters, knives and sanding wraps. If there's not enough left to run the 15/20A upgrade after all that then so be it, I'll shell out a little more for that.

I'm a little surprised that neither drum sander is on castors, given the weight of them. It's not a deal breaker but it would have been handy. I know you can purchase universal mobile bases, I got one for my Hafco bandsaw, but it was hard enough lifting the ~120kg saw into the base - forget about trying to wrangle a 240kg drum sander into one. From what I can see the machines are all very likely to be clones of each other, but the Carbatec variants have the better warranty period which is important to me.

Regarding the power I will only ever be operating the thicknesser OR drum sander in conjunction with the extractor at any given time - I'll confirm with my sparky but is there anything special I need to be aware of if I am getting a single 15A circuit run to the shop? Is it better to get him to run 20A, even if I end up going with the Carbatec products which are only 15A, just for piece of mind, or do I need two 15A circuits to spread the load?

Ultimately I would love to hear from anyone on their experiences with any of the above products. I make a lot of end grain cutting boards (no, I don't feed them through the thicknesser don't worry), and I am starting to branch out into benchtops and coffee tables and other small bits of furniture. I would ideally have a helical or spherical TC cutterhead in the thicknesser, but if I go with that I drop back from a 20" to a 15", and that extra 5" really opens up my options, not to mention if I'm able to sand 25" at a time I don't want to be drastically limited in what I can plane. Thoughts on that?

Thanks everyone for your input

Anthony

You may need 220v for most of the equipment.

Seeing he’s in Australia, that shouldn’t be a problem.

West coast even has 240V

Putty
Congratultions on your new equipment. I think you have made wise decisions regarding your situation and requirements.
I noticed in your OP that you plan to make both end grain cutting boards and bench / table tops. Your drum sander will make finishing your cutting boards a dream.

With regard to bench tops etc have you considered how you will go about making these with the equipment you have purchased?

I have recently been making benchtops 600-700 wide starting with 150 x 38 rough sawn blackbut. How I went about this using similar sized equipment to yours may be of interest.

Each board was surface planed and one edge jointed. 2nd side was thicknessed to 34mm then boards ripped to width and second edge skimmed on the jointer. Since I have a Slider with fine finish blade this last step was not always necessay. This is all standard practice as you probably already know.

Next pairs of boards were joined using biscuits but before these boards were in turn joined together I ran each pair through the thicknesser again only taking off about 0.1/0.2 mm. This produced perfectly flat equal thickness pairs that when joined using the biscuit jointer referencing off the top surface, required only minimal sanding before the finnish was applied. To do this you need a wide thicknesser or you need to down size your planks. I think you made a wise choice getting at least a 15” thicky.

Enjoy you new toys
Ron

Thanks Ron,

A month in and I'm sure I've made the right choice. With regard to dust collection because everything is in such a neat, compact space and I'm only running 1.5m-2m hoses to each machine the collection has been outstanding. I've never used a (virtually) dust free table saw before, and it's such a nice change. The thicknesser is a brute too.

I've just started a 1000x600x50mm edge grain Redgum BBQ prep benchtop for a customer and aside from everything being flipped 90 degrees for the edge grain effect I did everything pretty much exactly like you outlined above. Coming from where I was it seemed like no trouble at all joining it all together.

At first the drum sander seemed great, then a complete letdown (worn out, cheap crappy paper that came with it), then I bought a roll of 80 grit mesh from Best Abrasives and loaded that on there and it shreds face/edge grain. The motor does tend to get overwhelmed easily with hard end grain, even taking very light cuts, but it's serviceable. I think I'll upgrade to the bigger 15A twin-drum version in 12 months or so. As far as everything else goes I'm thrilled with it.

Cheers,

Putty