Thread: New Workshop Fitout - Input Appreciated

Hi Putty,

When it comes to dust extraction more is definitely better, especially when you're running a thicky or sander. A common belief is expect about half the cfm to what is written on the side of the box. Albert isn't kidding when he says bank on spending about 1/3 of your budget on dust extraction. A decent setup for a typical small DIY setup will cost approx $1k+ this should include all your fittings etc, with all the gear you've listed this will easily reach $2k+. When i last checked Carbatec's website they no longer have their "Industrial" range in single phase (might have some if you called). Hafco do have a bunch of 5hp three phase jobbies which will be more what you're after to suit the machines you're planning on acquiring. Alternative bite the bullet and get yourself a clearvue.

Also be prepared to spend the rest of your life setting it up, modifying it, tweaking and maintaining.

Wide belt sanders are available but cost considerably more than your twin drum and more suited to a small to large commercial business, typically they are three phase units and have a sizeable footprint. No they are not available at Carbatec or Hafco.

Thank you everyone who has contributed, especially those who have either made multiple replies or dumbed it down for a relative newbie to understand.

From what I can take away from this I am better off going from a 20" HSS thicknesser to a 15" helical head (same money, same motor, better investment), I need to think strongly about the drum sander, a jointer is going to be a massive benefit, and dust extraction needs more consideration.

Let me address these...

The thicky - dropping to a better quality, smaller unit is what I will be doing. After all the info everyone has provided, it is a no-brainer.

The sander - I can't afford a wide belt sander (I have googled them...), but a good quality twin-drum or even single-drum sander will still be better than me flogging the hell out of the workpiece with my trusty Maktec belt sander - even if it is just
something I pass the workpiece through fresh out of the router sled to get rid of the router blade marks so I don't have to do it by hand, this is a win

The jointer - I'm going to invest in a 150mm jointer/planer. It makes sense, even if it is just so I can tidy up the edges of larger pieces - too large to run on edge through the thicky

The power - 2x 15A circuits for safety, makes sense. My sparky has assured me this will be a piece of cake and not too expensive given the line of sight between the meter and the workshop

The dust extraction - You should see the workshop as it is... 1 year teaching myself the absolute basics without any dust control whatsoever means it is filthy. I will be cleaning it out before the overhaul takes place. I have a solid shop vacuum now for the incidentals, and before the Triton bit the dust I invested in a second hand 500cfm Carbatec extractor from a friend which, while comparatively asthmatic, did an outstanding job. I'm not looking for pure air - I have a respirator for me and once a fortnight I vacuum all my tools and once a month I clean and lubricate them, I just need something to absorb the abuse that a thicknesser and dust extractor are going to dish out. I accept the 2300cfm twin-bag DC's are not the best, but they are a considerable upgrade for me and hardly the most expensive component if I do need to upgrade it earlier than the others.

Originally Posted by Putty

I accept the 2300cfm twin-bag DC's are not the best, but they are a considerable upgrade for me and hardly the most expensive component if I do need to upgrade it earlier than the others.

If you are using the workshop 40 hours a week only for sanding and thicknessing then I would be recommending a DC with a greater flow capacity but otherwise I think either of those DCs will be fine provided you do those other things I mentioned.

The DC is just one aspect, the others include how big is your shed and how large the doors and windows are you can keep open while working? A window and a large personal door or roller door make a big difference provided you can keep them open while working. Better still if you can force the ventilation, check out the dust extraction forum for more info on ventilation.

Originally Posted by BobL

If you are using the workshop 40 hours a week only for sanding and thicknessing then I would be recommending a DC with a greater flow capacity but otherwise I think either of those DCs will be fine provided you do those other things I mentioned.

The DC is just one aspect, the others include how big is your shed and how large the doors and windows are you can keep open while working? A window and a large personal door or roller door make a big difference provided you can keep them open while working. Better still if you can force the ventilation, check out the dust extraction forum for more info on ventilation.

Thanks Bob. At the moment I'm in there for approximately 30 hours a week doing all sorts of things. It's my double garage (I have a very considerate better half) with both roller doors open (so the neighbours can feel like they are a part of the whole experience). On face value it seems 2300cfm is the maximum I can go without converting the workshop to 3 phase which I'm not willing to do yet - we live in the suburbs with a view to buying a rural property within 10 years, and that is where I will be constructing a commercial woodmill from the ground up. As it is we are just going to make do as best we can.

Originally Posted by Putty

Thanks Bob. At the moment I'm in there for approximately 30 hours a week doing all sorts of things. It's my double garage (I have a very considerate better half) with both roller doors open (so the neighbours can feel like they are a part of the whole experience). On face value it seems 2300cfm is the maximum I can go without converting the workshop to 3 phase which I'm not willing to do yet - we live in the suburbs with a view to buying a rural property within 10 years, and that is where I will be constructing a commercial woodmill from the ground up. As it is we are just going to make do as best we can.

How many hours of use will you expect to be making dust with those two big machines?
I'm not talking about having the machines on but actually sanding or thicknessing wood. I'll bet is way less than half of your 30 hours. Even using these machines there is a pause in the dust making as the wood is passed back from the outfeed to the infeed side.

The DCs you refer to will have extraction of between 1000 and 1200 CFM when used with modifications to machinery I have detailed.
You could go to a 3kW extractor with a 15" impeller like a Clearvue on 15A single phase and using VFD. This will set you back $3.5k and then you have add the ducting etc
This is a premium level DIY level DC that will draw a real 1400 CFM through 150 mm ducting with modifications I have detailed above.
To get any more flow than this you will have go to 9" ducting - this is completely unnecessary in a double garage unless you have more than one machine running.

Your double roller doors are your best friend here, there will be very little chance that dust will build up to dangerous levels with those two doors open.

My testing of dust in DIY sheds shows that putting the DC outside and using good ventilation will cover most situations are just as important or maybe more than using a top of teh wazza DC. The real risk takers are wood turners turning 40 hours a week in a 3 x 3m shed with DC inside the shed and the doors and windows closed.

What would be better than just having the doors and windows open and relying on the weather is to force the ventilation with an exhaust fan or two.
Not a bathroom style fan but something like the ones I refer to in this thread Shed Ventilation are ideal - quiet, consume little power and will easily cover a double garage size shed.

Originally Posted by Putty

Thanks Bob. At the moment I'm in there for approximately 30 hours a week doing all sorts of things. It's my double garage (I have a very considerate better half) with both roller doors open (so the neighbours can feel like they are a part of the whole experience). On face value it seems 2300cfm is the maximum I can go without converting the workshop to 3 phase which I'm not willing to do yet - we live in the suburbs with a view to buying a rural property within 10 years, and that is where I will be constructing a commercial woodmill from the ground up. As it is we are just going to make do as best we can.

Putty have you thought about ClearVue dust extractor? single phase and not overly expensive, very efficient as well, only downside of it is the noise it generates, some woodworker insulates it and it seems worked well.

If you dont want to put that kind of money into expensive dust extraction, then can I suggest a full face mask? you will want to protect your lungs, it looks like you are doing it as a full time job... 30 hours a week.

I live in a suburb as well, my workshop is a triple garage, I have been wanting to move out to rural and build a proper workshop say 200m2+ with proper spray booth and display room for product....but thats so far away into the future, so about 5 years ago I chose to bite the bullet and invest on the infrastructure, I am not sure about Australia but I spent about 10k to 3 phase my workshop and wirings, dont use cheap components, 10k sounds a lot but compare to buying a property and building a dedicated factory - its nothing.

Besides, if you work 30 hours a week, you might want to consider 3 phase machines, the motor is a lot more durable than the single phaser. and plenty of second hand machines on machines4u, 2nd hand wide belt sander is not that expensive, I have bought 2 WBS to date, I sold one to a joinery business and actually made a good 100% profit out of it - I didnt setout to make money from buying/selling machinery, it was hardwork and fluke.

if you ever go down this path you may also want to leave some budget for a decent compressor, pre/post filter, an air refrigerator and compressed airline setup. Most of 3 phase machinery use compressed air to assist the operation - you also need compressed air for wide belt sander, its all fun.

Originally Posted by BobL

How many hours of use will you expect to be making dust with those two big machines?

Probably a maximum of 10 hours a week? Up to 15 as things continue to grow.

Originally Posted by BobL

The DCs you refer to will have extraction of between 1000 and 1200 CFM when used with modifications to machinery I have detailed.
You could go to a 3kW extractor with a 15" impeller like a Clearvue on 15A single phase and using VFD. This will set you back $3.5k and then you have add the ducting etc
This is a premium level DIY level DC that will draw a real 1400 CFM through 150 mm ducting with modifications I have detailed above.
To get any more flow than this you will have go to 9" ducting - this is completely unnecessary in a double garage unless you have more than one machine running.

Definitely only one machine running at any one time. It seems like a lot of money given my previous experience with the 500cfm budget extractor and the thicknesser... Like I say above if I pay $600 for a 'big' extractor and 12 months down decide to upgrade it's not as if I've wasted $2k-$3k and need to upgrade from there, I'll be able to sell it for a reasonable price, especially in Canberra where workshop machines are hard to come by and then consider a larger unit

Originally Posted by BobL

What would be better than just having the doors and windows open and relying on the weather is to force the ventilation with an exhaust fan or two.
Not a bathroom style fan but something like the ones I refer to in this thread Shed Ventilation are ideal - quiet, consume little power and will easily cover a double garage size shed.

This is also a very good idea. I will ask my sparky about these.

Originally Posted by Albert

Putty have you thought about ClearVue dust extractor? single phase and not overly expensive, very efficient as well, only downside of it is the noise it generates, some woodworker insulates it and it seems worked well.

Not yet, but then I have only just learned of their existence. It sounds like a big chunk of my budget from the figures that have been thrown around so far. Remember at the moment I'm the equivalent of a caveman rubbing two sticks together to create fire - a DC with any real level of sucking power that can connect to two machines at once is like being handed a flamethrower.

Originally Posted by Albert

If you dont want to put that kind of money into expensive dust extraction, then can I suggest a full face mask? you will want to protect your lungs, it looks like you are doing it as a full time job... 30 hours a week.

The mask I'm using is a half face mask. It's got both dust and fume filters on it for when I need to cast resin or clean up after the dog. It is probably the best $60 I've ever spent and I don't even like looking at the workshop without it on. I know it's working because I unfortunately have a very sensitive respiratory tract and tend to suffer more easily than most.

Originally Posted by Albert

I live in a suburb as well, my workshop is a triple garage, I have been wanting to move out to rural and build a proper workshop say 200m2+ with proper spray booth and display room for product....but thats so far away into the future, so about 5 years ago I chose to bite the bullet and invest on the infrastructure, I am not sure about Australia but I spent about 10k to 3 phase my workshop and wirings, dont use cheap components, 10k sounds a lot but compare to buying a property and building a dedicated factory - its nothing.

My sparky as told me if I want to go to 3 phase it I should expect a little change from $2500, which is pretty good I'm definitely not complaining. A whole new can of worms I am just about to open is this - a lot of the machines I'm looking at come in single phase/15-20A variants for, say, $2399. They also come in a 3 phase variant for exactly the same money. What gives? I would expect a 3 phase tool to cost much more than a single phase due to the strength of the motor and associated costs with that - am I wrong? Should I seriously consider investing in a 3 phase conversion and then get the bigger, gruntier machines?

Originally Posted by Putty

Hi All,

So having got nowhere with any enquiry regarding parts for the Triton TPT15

Anthony

Did you not find this site:
Tool Spares Online. Thicknesser TPT125 317mm MK2 (583534)

???

Originally Posted by Chrism3

Did you not find this site:
Tool Spares Online. Thicknesser TPT125 317mm MK2 (583534)

???

Alas, the TPT125 was/is the Triton baby thicknesser. Mine was the TPT15, a 15", 2.5hp monster. It must not have been very popular because only Triton and Grizzly made them, and neither sell the gears I need to fix mine.

Thanks though

Originally Posted by Putty

Not yet, but then I have only just learned of their existence. It sounds like a big chunk of my budget from the figures that have been thrown around so far. Remember at the moment I'm the equivalent of a caveman rubbing two sticks together to create fire - a DC with any real level of sucking power that can connect to two machines at once is like being handed a flamethrower.


The mask I'm using is a half face mask. It's got both dust and fume filters on it for when I need to cast resin or clean up after the dog. It is probably the best $60 I've ever spent and I don't even like looking at the workshop without it on. I know it's working because I unfortunately have a very sensitive respiratory tract and tend to suffer more easily than most.



My sparky as told me if I want to go to 3 phase it I should expect a little change from $2500, which is pretty good I'm definitely not complaining. A whole new can of worms I am just about to open is this - a lot of the machines I'm looking at come in single phase/15-20A variants for, say, $2399. They also come in a 3 phase variant for exactly the same money. What gives? I would expect a 3 phase tool to cost much more than a single phase due to the strength of the motor and associated costs with that - am I wrong? Should I seriously consider investing in a 3 phase conversion and then get the bigger, gruntier machines?

If you do a lot of woodwork then you should consider invest 3 phase, it gives you a lot more options of what you can do, especially if there are pneumatics involved, however these 3 phase machines are all quite large in foot print.

also keep in mind is the in rush current of a 3 phase machine may cripple your supply. typically a 3 phase machine has in rush current, ie, when it first startup, the inrush current of starting up is 6-7 times the Full load current, I had this very issue with my wide belt sander, the sander's FLC is 39amp. my power supply is only 63 amp. there is no way I can turn on that sander without crippling the power supply of my suburb. therefore I had to install a Variable Speed/Frequency Drive to limit the in rush current equal to the FLC. you can do this with a soft starter/star delta, but even with a star delta starter you will still have 3-4 times the in rush current. A VFD/VSD is not cheap. for a 39amp VFD it costed me $5000+gst at the time, that was about 5 years ago.

the one and only good thing about single phase machines is when you sell your machines, it has higher resell value.

Originally Posted by Albert

A VFD/VSD is not cheap. for a 39amp VFD it costed me $5000+gst at the time, that was about 5 years ago.

Conon motors in Australia sells 40A VFDs for ~AUS$1500
https://cononmotor.com.au/product/18...vsd-vfd-lathe/
If you are prepared to purchase direct to China this sort of power can be had for under AUS$1000.

What gives? I would expect a 3 phase tool to cost much more than a single phase due to the strength of the motor and associated costs with that - am I wrong?

3 phase motors are sightly simpler than single phase motors so are cheaper to make. In terms of grunt, if the motors are rated the same power they should have the same power - I have tested the power output of many single phase and 3 phase motors and apart from one very budget level SP motor, even cheaper chinese motors all output their rated power. There is talk about how 3P motors apply smoother power than SP motors but I don't believe that is the case. The simplicity of build of 3Phase motors and their often more rugged construction means they will run quieter (so they sound smoother) and will last on average longer than SP motors.

Should I seriously consider investing in a 3 phase conversion and then get the bigger, gruntier machines?

It depends on your budget and whether you are prepared to purchase used machines. Upgrunting from new 3HP to new 5-6HP machinery will approximately double your machine purchase costs but this will give you access to 3P used machinery which is often well priced. Only you can work out if this will work for you in terms of improved quality/longevity of machinery. if your business plan approaches a 10+ year lifetime then I'd say its worth it even if you have to move in the future.

The other thing is space - a double garage is not that a big space and more powerful 3P machines may have a bigger footprint and weight and not be so easy to move around.

Thats what I like about Australia, industrial stuff are cheaper. by the way the VFD I bought was Danfoss 2800 series. not sure if there is any differences between different brands but from my daytime job we only use Danfoss or ABB, hence I never considered anything other than Danfoss or ABB.

I think Putty should invest in 3phase if it can be done for like $2500, ask for the maximum amp you can have, add a few VFD and its all good.

Originally Posted by Putty

Not yet, but then I have only just learned of their existence. It sounds like a big chunk of my budget from the figures that have been thrown around so far. Remember at the moment I'm the equivalent of a caveman rubbing two sticks together to create fire - a DC with any real level of sucking power that can connect to two machines at once is like being handed a flamethrower.


The mask I'm using is a half face mask. It's got both dust and fume filters on it for when I need to cast resin or clean up after the dog. It is probably the best $60 I've ever spent and I don't even like looking at the workshop without it on. I know it's working because I unfortunately have a very sensitive respiratory tract and tend to suffer more easily than most.



My sparky as told me if I want to go to 3 phase it I should expect a little change from $2500, which is pretty good I'm definitely not complaining. A whole new can of worms I am just about to open is this - a lot of the machines I'm looking at come in single phase/15-20A variants for, say, $2399. They also come in a 3 phase variant for exactly the same money. What gives? I would expect a 3 phase tool to cost much more than a single phase due to the strength of the motor and associated costs with that - am I wrong? Should I seriously consider investing in a 3 phase conversion and then get the bigger, gruntier machines?

dont worry about single phase machines and just move into 3 phase, like BobL said, if you plan to do it for more than 10 years, just go to the 3 phase. I dont think I will ever go back to single phase myself. I am only 5th year into my 3 phase conversion and already loving it, I can buy anything I want and not to be limited by the single/three phase dilemma.

My previous wide belt sander is a 1985 SCM Uno sander, it was still running strong and no signs of giving up just before I sold it to a joinery workshop, its not a monster only a 10hp/920mm wide, if you are into woodworking then you need a good sander. You can try a stroke sander if you want an option other than WBS but a stroke sander is like playing a piano. and they probably will take up the entire double garage you have.

If you ever plan to do spraying or using pneumatic tools, you will need a very strong compressor, no single phase compressor can do what a 3 phase compressor can do in terms of CFM.