Thread: Revolutionary Teknatool Drill Press

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I love technology and those that don't are in the wrong thread.

No we aren't. We are quite entitled to post in any thread we see fit to.

I don't think anyone objects to criticism.
What is a bit on the nose is criticism based on conjecture.

As far as I know, none of us have seen the DVR drill in the flesh. One or two may have seen Technatool's DVR lathe which appears to share it's motor and press buttons with the drill press, but again, AFAIK, no one has pointed to a negative experience with the lathe. While others have pointed to quite positive experiences with industrial grade tools incorporating press buttons.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Technology is great, especially when it saves huge amounts of time like motorised saw stops and fences, but, due to falling costs, I think it's now being increasingly used by the marketing department instead of the engineering department.

would agree. electronics in the right place, maybe where the right place is, is also a personal preference.

Originally Posted by bueller

I DESPISE most modern cars because they're full of electronics where none is required and when something goes wrong it's expensive as hell to diagnose and fix. Now imagine trying to fix this thing in a decade if the company goes bust and parts are non-existent. You'd probably need a degree in electrical engineering.

The problem is they need the electronics to meet design rules as dictated by govt depts., this in turn is in response to safety concerns and emission concerns. Also a lot of the systems and so called gimmicks are consumer driven.

I've worked on systems with mechanical and electronic air bag systems and I know which one I'd rather have, if I was in an accident and either one would be better than none.

The electronic systems on vehicles aren't that complex to diagnose but they are expensive, as it's component replacement rather than a component repair.

What bothers me about all the wonderful electronics is that I cannot fix them myself if something goes wrong. I accept this in items that I know to have a short lifespan, such as a laptop or iPad, but it is not the same for the workshop, where I am used to seeing machinery that extends through some generations of woodworkers.

Fixing things is in the blood of most of us here. I am not going to pack up my tablesaw/lathe/drill press and send it back to the manufacturer to replace a rubber band or a loose bolt. I want to be able to diagnose the problem, and repair it .. and do so on the spot. No mucking around. Now.

The problem with progress for guys like myself is the loss of control. I see some of this as independence and some of it as a need for control. These can be good things - I think it is important that we develop skills - but can also create stress for those tools and items for which we have no control. We all have some area about which we feel limited. Mine is the electrical area. Give me mechanical any day.

Cars fall into this category as well. I was happy to restore a '57 Porsche 356 from the ground up over a period of 12 years. I grew up on VW beetles. Talk about basic. I love the old cars, and when I watch the car restoration shows on tellie, it is somewhat comforting (since the cost of these cars has gone through the roof) that I could own something like that because it is possible to rebuild a heap in my garage. I wound up selling the 356 because I could not rebuild the gearbox myself, and there was no one (at the time) in Perth who could help (went through a few mechanics to no avail). The car that replaced it is so different (I bought a like-new but older Boxster S). I have never seen the motor in the seven years of ownership as it lies deep in the depths of the body. I take the car to a specialist mechanic to service (to change the bloody oil!). I feel so ashamed and useless. But is is such a gas to drive

The Technatool drill sounds wonderful, but I do not see myself owning one of these. The same can be said for a SawStop - I like the idea and the thought behind tools like these. But I really do not want a machine that has technicalities beyond my ability.

Keeping it it simple in Perth

Derek

You pretty much articulated my exact thoughts on this Derek.

I think some people need to look at electronics in a different light.
Simple electronics like in these machines are mostly all packaged into a single component which then connects to various sensors and/or displays/lights/indicators and switches.
You don't have to understand everything about electronics to have a little confidence that things can be repaired.
Think of it in terms of components.

I am trying to think of an analogy and I can't think of a perfect example just now.
Let's say a gearbox.
Most of us would not rebuild a gearbox. Even mechanics. This is why companies specialise in gearboxes. We might remove it and take the whole gearbox to someone else or to replace it. Then we might fit the repaired gearbox back in.

So it could be with electronics.
Except that electronics are cheap. Usually it is not cost effective for the time for an electronics engineer to repair a circuit board. That is certainly true for simple electronics in these machines. One would simply get a new one and replace the entire circuit board, then check that this resolved the issue. Or in the case of these machines the entire electronics package is probably in a single assembly. So we might swap out the whole assembly. If that didn't solve the issue then it is probably a sensor or the power supply to the electronics. Pretty simple to deduct the fault if you think of it like that.

Rather than ship an entire machine to be repaired, we might conceivably remove the electronic package and replace it with a new one. In theory that is something a handyman could do.

Electronics are sensitive to various things, particularly static electricity which you 'carry' around in your body. Also these machines have significant amounts of electricity running through them - which is a safety issue for you. It also means that things need to be installed in a quality way - not some half baked, number 8 wire, she'll be right manner. So there are some things to be aware of before you start sticking your fingers on parts.

However in principle it is simply swapping out components.

In addition to all of that. Electronics have zero moving parts. This makes them extremely reliable. Statistically speaking, the last thing that would fail would be the electronics themselves. It is much more likely to be a wire connection or switch or sensor that has some movement. Which in turn, is statistically much less likely to fail than the mechanical moving parts of a workshop machine.

On top of all that, the rate of technological change is accelerating. Although woodwork is probably the oldest trade in the world, it will not and has not, escaped technological innovation. Also the technology of manufacturing continues to evolve which drives prices ever lower and raises quality (per dollar) and functionality at the same time. Hence the expectation for machinery to be in use for generations is constantly reduced.

I'm not saying your Felder panel saw will be worthless in 10 years. I am saying that the accelerating trend is that machinery will depreciate faster, and obsolescence to accelerate for most people, in most applications.

Look at cordless tool battery technology for example. While some people might still swear by their old 12V Nicad batteries, the vast majority prefer the newest technology and these old ones will not be in use in future generations of woodworkers.

There used to be a time when one might have used grandads drill. Now that is extremely unlikely. Even a casual DIY guy like me eventually buys a new drill before the old one has died. Once I moved and it was not worth taking my old drill with me. Another time, I wanted a cordless drill, mostly because the old drill is too big for a lot of uses. So for different reasons I have replaced my drill about every 10 years, even though the old one probably still works.

I can't predict the future, but one potential trend might be that most table saws will include the Saw Stop technology in the future. Maybe in just a few years the current $4,000 cabinet saw that currently does not have that technology will be available for $1,000. Which in turn would make the current low cabinet table saw options completely obsolete. Or we might come up with a similar prediction about future drill presses.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

I think some people need to look at electronics in a different light.
Simple electronics like in these machines are mostly all packaged into a single component which then connects to various sensors and/or displays/lights/indicators and switches.
You don't have to understand everything about electronics to have a little confidence that things can be repaired.

I think you've missed our point. We're not saying they can't be repaired, we're saying it's a lot more difficult to do so. A traditional drill press can be repaired using parts from the local bearing supplier or ordered online (something I frequently do due to living in Perth), a machine like this you're tethered to the manufacturer for life.

Yes some circuit boards can be replaced but it's very unlikely that this is a user serviceable part. Then there's the cost of replacement to consider. Most electronics these days use a single board, if one minor thing goes you wind up replacing the whole board. This is rarely cheap.

Electronics aren't immune to major failures either, there are massive recalls every week. Just last year Samsung lost billions of dollars because of recalls on their Note 7 line. And thinking back further there was the capacitor plague which affected millions of products produced between 1999-2003.

I'm not saying your Felder panel saw will be worthless in 10 years. I am saying that the accelerating trend is that machinery will depreciate faster, and obsolescence to accelerate for most people, in most applications.

That is terrible!

One of the reasons I build furniture along traditional lines is that I rail against the 'throw-away' mentality that has taken over society. I do not want "built-in obsolescence" in my workshop. I want something that may be timeless. It does not have to be vintage, but it must have the capacity to become vintage.

Look at cordless tool battery technology for example. While some people might still swear by their old 12V Nicad batteries, the vast majority prefer the newest technology and these old ones will not be in use in future generations of woodworkers.

My Panasonic drill is 20 years old. I recognise that it will need to be replaced one day. I also have a 5 year old Festool C12 drill. I'd rather pay a little more up front for a tool that will last. I understand that many cannot afford to do the same, and this is the same for me as well - I'd rather buy something second hand that, and even something that may need repair, if its potential lifespan is significant.

There used to be a time when one might have used grandads drill. Now that is extremely unlikely. Even a casual DIY guy like me eventually buys a new drill before the old one has died. Once I moved and it was not worth taking my old drill with me. Another time, I wanted a cordless drill, mostly because the old drill is too big for a lot of uses. So for different reasons I have replaced my drill about every 10 years, even though the old one probably still works.

This is where we started from, and why we may differ in our approaches - I am not suggesting one is better than the other, just that the influences are different, and these guide our views ..

My grandfather (if he had tools, which he did not) would have owned handplanes and chisels and other handtools. These are the tools that inspire me. They are driven by mechanicals, not electrics. I cannot imagine anything electrical built tomorrow lasting beyond a few years. Wiring may be replaced, but circuits and computers have a limited lifespan, and most unlikely to be restorable.

I have a couple of routers from around 1950 that I plan to restore one day. The wiring needs to be replaced. Why did I buy them? Well, I think they are just gorgeous - not likely to be particularly good as tools (small motor and only 1/4") - but they are art. I would like them back in use.



Of course, one of these will not suffer the fate of electrical decay



Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by DaveVman

Except that electronics are cheap. Usually it is not cost effective for the time for an electronics engineer to repair a circuit board. That is certainly true for simple electronics in these machines. One would simply get a new one and replace the entire circuit board, then check that this resolved the issue. Or in the case of these machines the entire electronics package is probably in a single assembly. So we might swap out the whole assembly. If that didn't solve the issue then it is probably a sensor or the power supply to the electronics. Pretty simple to deduct the fault if you think of it like that.

Rather than ship an entire machine to be repaired, we might conceivably remove the electronic package and replace it with a new one. In theory that is something a handyman could do.

The issue for me (and my primary qualification is electronics) is that you will, in a few years time, no longer be able to source the "electronic package" and so for the want of a $5 circuit board, a $5000 tool can be made obsolete.It would be one thing if the manufacturers would provide full specifications on what the electronics consist of, but they won't, so essentially you have (as Derek said) lost control and independence. You are completely reliant on the manufacturer supplying the bits you need and if they decide that it no longer worth their while, or they go out of business, your tool is a paper weight.

Sure.
The answer to that would be if the manufacturers used industry standard microcontrollers and their off the shelf boards etc.
Then one could replace or even upgrade the electronics and software without the tool manufacturer.
Look at the Xcarve, OX CNC and other open source CNC machines for examples.
Hobbyists demand a lot for a low price which drives manufacturers to mass produce custom electronic packages.
However if there really was enough demand for the kind of interest shown here then there could be all kinds of open source machines not only CNC machines. You could even build your own to perfectly suit your specific requirements and budget.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I love being able to change RPM without having to change belt settings. One of the best things I ever did was fit a VFD to my metal lathe. I rarely change belt settings these days. However, at low RPMs I’m restricted to a smaller depth of cut. Apparently induction motors have poor torque at low RPM.

I sometimes use my old Taiwanese pedestal drill (no VFD) with an adjustable circle cutter to cut large holes in speaker boxes. This cutter has to be spun at the lowest speed on the drill. That’s no problem because the belt drive allows the motor to run at full speed, so there’s loads of torque.

That got me thinking about how this new drill would perform with my circle cutter. Then I found this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYm666jmnE The circle diameter setting goes up to 8”. I’m impressed.

I still think the drill is too short, but that’s easy enough to remedy. Like some others I worry about the cost of an electronics failure a few years down the track. Someone up-thread opined the electronics in this drill are simple. I don’t think so. My research indicates that reluctance motors require a complex waveform to perform well. The exploded parts diagram shows that the circuit board inside this drill is huge. So I won’t be an early adopter, but I’ll be keeping an eye on the reviews.

Finally, I’m just throwing this out there. This is a note in the User Manual:

NOTE: Ground Fault Interrupters (GFI's) are generally not compatible with Variable speed motors. If you wish to use a GFI or RCD, select a unit that is confirmed for use with a Variable speed motor using capacitor charge.

I don’t know whether our RCDs in Oz meet this requirement.

If you are handy with computers pretty much anything can be repaired or improved with an Arduino unit, a few shields, a bunch of programming and it's better than new.

I made a camera rig upa little while ago, the code and the boards were done by others, I had to make the rig itself, case, buttons and do a bit of soldering but it ended up basically like a little CNC but with a camera rather than a cutter.

If anything fails on this drill's PCB it's likely to be the motor drive stage, not the microprocessor. That is, the power transistors. At least that's been my experience with high power circuitry like power amplifiers, welders, motor drivers, etc. It's usually the bits that get hot that kark it first.