Thread: TS or BS to accompany small shop hand tool usage ?

Originally Posted by sirex

So i've got some questions;
1) Does anyone here use a TS and / or bandsaw to accompany hand tool usage ? If so, does either one make a better option if you could only have the one ?

If you need to resaw I would get the BS - if not, keep the TS

2) Is there a sweet spot for BS sizing or is it just a case of 'get the biggest one that you can' ?

I would get the biggest you can find.
A big BS can still usually run a small band but the not VV.

3) Do bandsaws produce similar levels of dust to a TS ? Ideally i'm aiming to avoid epic dust levels (which, with just a shop vac and in a small area can become an issue) and is also one of the reasons i mostly use hand tools

A BS produces less overall sawdust because the kerf is narrower but it still produces nearly the same amount of fine sawdust as a TS.
A TS sprays fine dust further afield.,
A shop vac is completely inadequate for either a BS or a TS but I've said enough about this already
.

4) Area they generally quieter than table saws ? The screaming TS motor is anouther thing i'm not too keen on.

BS is usually quieter than a TS.

There are others here whose opinion matters much more than mine, but I'd have I say the Laguna SUV14" that's here is fantastic.

Without a tablesaw some operations might not be possible, but thinking over everything done upon it, it doesn't take too much imagination to do them alternatively with the bandsaw.

Sure, you might not be able to do sheet stock, but I rarely do sheets on the saw either. It's all done on a trellis out the front. Additionally, there are 50 tasks a bandsaw is better at than a saw.

With a fantastic blade like a Resaw King or Lennox carbide it will give you a magic smooth cut.

Although I have most of the necessary machines, like a table saw, a thicknesser, a jointer, 2 bandsaws, a drill press, air compressor, router table and other portable power tools. I don't use many of them and prefer working with my hands using non-power hand tools. It's quiet, There is no dust and no need for dust extraction which is as noisy, if not more so and certainly more obtrusive than than the tools that it provides a service to. The machines that I use most often are:

1. My tormek sharpening system that I use daily to sharpen my planes and chisels
2. My drill press and my table saw which I use about equally often. My table saw is a carbetac contractor table saw with a Biesemeyer style fence and a Wixey digital fence readout.
3. The air compressor just to charge up the air gun.

I hardly use any other machines. I hardly touch the bandsaws at all. My table saw motor is an induction motor and is fairly quiet, certainly not noisier than the bandsaws. I use my table saw to do angle cuts, cross cuts and rip cuts. I sometimes prefer to use the table saw to do a bit of re-sawing of up to 150 mm breath pieces (2 passes). The only time that I really use a bandsaw is when I cut curves.

If I were you, I would trade in your table saw and buy another table saw with a induction motor which is much quieter and a thin kerf blade. Both types of saws throw out enough dusts to annoy me and I wouldn't say one is cleaner than the other one. I generally don't connect my table saw to dust extraction. My strategy is to minimise usage of the saw and hand saw whenever possible. and I use the saw outdoors.

Although hand tools do produce less saw dust and even less fine dust than power tools, most wood workers don't realise just how little sawdust is needed to reach max recommended OHS levels especially if a bit of hand sanding is involved.

The container on top of the digital balance in the photo is a soft drink bottle top.
It contains 270 mg of fine dust which if evenly dispersed into air is sufficient to contaminate 4 sheds each of 6 x 4 x 2.7 m
It is easily possible to reach these fine dust levels using hand tools and even lower levels than this can trigger allergies.

Softdrinkdust.jpg

Capturing fine dust at source from hand tools is tricky but as the levels are generally low, good forced ventilation is usually sufficient and would be recommended as a minimum for hand tool use.
Relying on doors and windows and the local breeze is too unreliable for most DIY situations which involved cramped and crowded suburban back yards.

Dust extraction noise becomes much less of an issue if the DC is located outside or inside the shed inside an enclosure which is vented outside.

Working outside with machinery is no guarantee either.
I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks working with power and hand tools outside.
Even when working outside a minimum would be to wear a mask.

Folks considering running machinery sans dust extraction could do well to look at this post
The scary result of ZERO dust extraction in a cabinet.

Originally Posted by BobL

Working outside with machinery is no guarantee either.

The last time I looked, there was no guarantee in life except death and taxes.
Every time you cross the road, or go out for a walk. There is risk. It's a matter of balancing risk and taking the opportunity to enjoy life.
Every time you sweep the floor, there will be more dust than in that drink cap. Every time we empty that vacuum, there is more risk than just catching an allergy.
Every time we eat red meat, there is a risk of heart attack or cancer.
Every time we go to busy places, there is a risk of terrorist attack.
I like moderation and I like minimizing risk, but I'd also like to enjoy the quietness and the serenity that my shed creates. I go there to relax, and no one will convince me that I forego that tranquility to capture a cap full of saw dust that is probably closer to the ground than I am.

The problem with that situation in The scary result of ZERO dust extraction in a cabinet. is more of a explosion hazard than a dust extraction problem. I checked my saw motor today and there was no saw dust in my junction box and I don't use dust extraction.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

There are others here whose opinion matters much more than mine, but I'd have I say the Laguna SUV14" that's here is fantastic.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Without a tablesaw some operations might not be possible, but thinking over everything done upon it, it doesn't take too much imagination to do them alternatively with the bandsaw.

Sure, you might not be able to do sheet stock, but I rarely do sheets on the saw either. It's all done on a trellis out the front. Additionally, there are 50 tasks a bandsaw is better at than a saw.

With a fantastic blade like a Resaw King or Lennox carbide it will give you a magic smooth cut.

yeah i've heard good things about that particular saw. I'm in nz though so i'll have to see if its available here. No doubt it'd be eye watering expensive.

originally i got the TS because i'd come to understand it was the most versatile and i wanted to cover my bases, but in reality i don't often work with sheet goods (not least because at 2.4m, they're generally longer than my room is wide so i buy quarter sheets) and i do dado's by hand anyhow. So really it's only the accurate ripping of stuff 1-2m long that i use it for, and bevel cuts i guess, but that's only really been due to the amount of french cleat i've done recently while setting up the shop. I understand you can do that on a BS with some messing about if needs be.

in terms of the dust, it's a real issue because although i could get a 2HP DE, it'd take up a decent amount of the room and as there's a walkway outside both corner walls putting the DE outside isn't really possible (besides which it's a concrete block & rebar construction house so drilling a 150mm hole in the wall would take some doing even if SWMBO hadn't already vetoed the idea p).

I'm pretty certain i wouldn't miss the TS which has been my most regrettable purchase by far. i'm just not sure a BS would be better enough to make it worth it considering the space needs. A 14" bandsaw has about the same footprint as a jobsite TS doesn't it ?

I find it somewhat incongruous that woodworkers that really love their ww time continually expose themselves to developing an allergy to wood dust that will restrict them from woodworking? You would think they would be doing everything possible to prevent that from happening. The alternative as one of my friends discovered when he developed a wood dust allergy was he had to learn to enjoy painting.

Whether they are machine or hand tool users, every time a wood worker sweeps or vacuum a shed floor, that capful of sawdust (and i'm sure there will be far more than a capful) will fluff up into the air and as well as exposing the woodworker while sweeping, the exposure continues for hours afterwards. The level of exposure is as much as some machinery. I recommend using at least a mask for this operation.

I also highly value quietness and serenity. I lost significant amount of hearing for my age back in the 70's due to excessive exposure to music. Since then I have done as much as possible to minimise my noise exposure through the use of ear muffs and practices and I like nothing more than a quiet shed. This is one reason why I stopped going to the mens shed and probably why over the years I have gravitated more to using very quite machinery like my metal lathe and metal band saw over WW machinery. The other benefit of using these machines is they use liquid lube/coolant which entraps the dust at source, hence no dust extraction needed.

The key to minimising the use of dust extraction and hence noise is entrapment of as much of the dust as possible the dust at source which is near impossible to do with hand tools
Entrapment at source in machinery is easier but requires the use of more powerful systems than most DIY'ers realise. If only small DCs are used, the DC needs to run for much longer after use to clear a shed of escaped dust - this is indeed a PITE (pain in the ear). If a DC system is used that can grab the dust at source , the time the DC has to run after that is a couple of minutes it's nowhere as noisy.

Using a dust particle detector I found it unnecessary to run my DC for more than a few minutes after using WW machinery. Unless I'm wood turning, I estimate that >10% of my shed wood working time requires using a DC. The rest of the time I'm using hand tools and forced ventilation.

For hand tool user there are extremely quite fine dust removers available. For this form of ventilation I have two (1/4 and 1/3rd HP) squirrel cage fans which use very little power and being variable speed can be made to run at a whisper quiet speeds. Usually I run the 1/4HP fan on low speed continuously. Ceiling mounted fine dust extractors are also quiet and low power and suitable for hand tool users, although they don't cope all that well with the amount of dust generated by sanding.

The problem with that situation in The scary result of ZERO dust extraction in a cabinet. is more of a explosion hazard than a dust extraction problem.

It's very unlikely to explode - it has to have a very specific air to dust ratio and an ignition source to explode. The most likely thing in that situation is a fire.

I checked my saw motor today and there was no saw dust in my junction box and I don't use dust extraction.

At least you checked
The contractor style saw with the motor hanging out the back is less likely to suffer from the connector box filling up with dust, but it can still happen. Ask Derek Cohen.

Originally Posted by sirex

A 14" bandsaw has about the same footprint as a jobsite TS doesn't it ?

You haven't mentioned what size wood you work with?
If the wood is small enough, what about 10" BS and a bench top TS. One could sit under the bench and you could exchange the two as required?

Originally Posted by BobL

You haven't mentioned what size wood you work with?
If the wood is small enough, what about 10" BS and a bench top TS. One could sit under the bench and you could exchange the two as required?

I buy 2m lengths (as that's all i can fit in my van and rip in the room) typically at 50x50, 25x150, and 25x300. So a 12" resaw capacity would probably do the job. Usually pine but some macrocarpa too. No hardwoods as yet just because i can't afford to fork out $60 a meter for wood, esp without resaw ability, but it'd be nice in the future.

A bench top TS might work, i'd not really considered that. My bench isn't really deep enough to put any type of table saw under it, and the hold fasts protrude down into that space anyhow but i might be able to wall hang it when not in use maybe. Originally I was planning to put a lunchbox thicknesser under the bench (dodging the holdlfast holes), but i'm realising i enjoy the hand tools enough to just hand plane everything so i've put that idea off for now.

a 10" BS might work, i have just been looking at the 12" laguna actually which looks like a good unit for the room size, if i can find a place to ship it into nz.

I have a carport in front of the shed. I have everything on casters so I can roll it all out to work on a project. This effectively gives me double the space I theoretically have and it's healthier. Don't know if you can do the same but I recommend it.

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Originally Posted by BobL

The key to minimising the use of dust extraction and hence noise is entrapment of as much of the dust as possible the dust at source which is near impossible to do with hand tools.

Yeah, I found when measuring dust particulate levels that hand tools generate a significant amount of fine dust, particularly sawing and sanding operations. I use a move-able dust hood on the bench whilst I'm using planes, saws, sanding etc. I reduce the speed of the dust collector via the VFD to 50 hz so as to reduce the noise. It would be nice to have complete serenity as that seems more fitting when using hand tools but I'd rather preserve my health and continue woodworking long-term than increase the "ambiance" for the short term!

I probably use the table saw 10:1 over the bandsaw, and I consider myself a serious hand tool user.

Yeah this is a tough call. I'd have a tough time choosing between the two if I had to get rid of one.

I guess for me I'd probably keep the band-saw. I probably use the table saw more often but I could use a track-saw for all of the table saw tasks - it would just take a lot longer and is very tedious.

The band-saw on the other hand provides the ability to rip down thicker pieces of wood up to 14" (for mine anyway), cut veneers and cut curves. I also use it to cut tenon cheeks, notches, box-lids, tapers, etc.

I purchased a band-saw before my table saw as it was a priority for me. However, now that i have a table-saw I'd hate to lose it.

Also, if I didn't have good dust extraction, I would get rid of the table saw for sure. The band saw dust is easier to manage with a smaller extractor IMO.

Tough choice though. I don't envy you.

Oh, I think the bigger the better regarding the band-saw. Particularly if you are not going to have a table saw. I got a Laguna LT 18 and never find myself thinking I could or should have gone smaller. The Laguna Resaw King Blade is very nice.

I use hand tools for all my joinery and to crosscut stock. I have learned how to flatten and square boards by hand but I tend to use a jointer and thicknesser (unless the board is too large). For rip cuts, I like the bandsaw. I have a table saw, but in fact I rarely use it now (you can tell because it has a whole lot of cr@p on it).

What does that show? Probably nothing, except that's the way I like to work. As is usually the case, there's no one right way, so do it a safe way that you feel suits you.