Thread: 7016 vs 7018 what's your experience

Originally Posted by beefy

Hi Everyone,

soon to have my first try of low hydrogen rods and I'm looking forward to it. I've got Austarc 16TC and Kobe LB52-U, both of which are 7016. I'm now looking at getting some more LHs in a different diameter. Anyone got views on 7016 vs 7018 (E4816 vs E4818).

I've got all the storage stuff, oven stuff, etc sorted, just in case someone will say something about that. I'm more concerned about how the two rods types weld, even going as far as what brand was used. It seems to be a fact that the same type of rod weld very differently from different manufacturers.

Also know that 7018 have medium iron powder addition whereas the 7016 do not, so 7018s have a higher deposition rate. Does anyone thinks this makes the 7016 easier to use in out of position welds. Some have said one is easier and others say the other is easier (mainly overseas forums) so thought I'd ask here at home.

Cheers,

Keith.

My experience of 16TC's has been that they run beautifully but are prone to porosity at the start of your run, really only an issue if welding to code. E4818 electrodes are probably a bit nicer to run and the iron powder content produces no problems out of position, their slag is also typically a lot easier to remove than E4816's. A big advantage of 16TC's and ferrocraft 16xtc's, (I think that is the one), are that they will run on low OCV machines. If using DC or a machine that produces around 70V OCV then this is of little consequence. If you are new to the world of Low Hydro's then 16TC's are very forgiving to learn with. To make electrodes easier to restart there are a couple of tricks that work. One is to drive the electrode while still red hot on the tip into a piece of green hardwood, this coats the tip in carbon and makes it easier to restart, the other is to have a piece of heavy steel nearby that you tap the electrode tip on to remove excess flux before striking and arc and the good old striking pad works well too.
When talking low hydro's, there are really no "bad" electrodes I can think of and there seems to be less variance between different brands of the same classification than with the rutile class of electrodes and it can come back to individual preference, sort of like the Ford versus Holden argument.
Personally I love low hydro's and use them for most work I do other than thin tube work.

I prefer the 18's, but either or does not worry me..

16's are certainly much more popular in Australia...

Although I did read somewhere that once they are opened and a few hours old they lose their low hydrogen status and need recooking to get it back again, so you might as well use 12's or 13's...

Originally Posted by .RC.

Although I did read somewhere that once they are opened and a few hours old they lose their low hydrogen status and need recooking to get it back again, so you might as well use 12's or 13's...

I don't think it is quite that quick, but you are correct that storage is important to maintain low hydro status.
Low hydro's do give a tougher weld even when they lose their low hydro status and I quite like their running characteristics.
Electrode preference among welders is an interesting subject. I positively despise Satincraft 13's, (but many people love them), yet I am quite happy to use Kobe RB26's or Austarc 13's.
The Americans seen to have a love affair with firesticks, (E4110 or E4111), while we in Australia seldom use them.

Thanks for the replies lads.

It seems there are a lot of 6013 haters out there. I've found through browsing various welding forums that many people think lo-hi rods weld better/easier than 6013s. I myself am developing a bit of discomfort to 6013 rods. After reading about "firesticks" I went out and bought some and guess what, I love them, although they are a rod with a purpose. I've now got three packs of 6011s. I noticed the grimace on both dealers faces when I asked for them, as though they were wondering what the f*** does he want these for. There's one guy uses only 6011s every day for welding thin sheet vertical down on DC electrode negative to reduce penetration. He says the thick slag on 6012/13s means they need to be run too hot to be useful on thin steel. I have found it quite amazing how you deliberately blow a hole with "firesticks" then whip away and come back again to fill the hole you just blasted in the steel (called keyholing in open root pass welding). It's something I want to have a lot more play with when I get time. Google forums + 6010 / 6011 and you'll find lots of guys talking about how they love them, although some hated them initially.

It's also interesting how a lot in the US don't even know about 7016s and how here we don't seem to use 7018s much, noticed many welding shops don't have much in the way of 7018. As far as keeping them dry, I'm making airtight storage containers out of 90mm stormwater pipe and end caps. I'll be purging them with argon and I'll have a little cap on one end where I get the rod out. The other end has a car tyre valve and I'm making a hose/valve setup to connect to my argon regulator so I can just have a trickle of argon purge as a retreive a rod from the tube. This will ensure I get no air in the tubes and the rods stay as dry as they were when I put them in there and I won't need a rod oven going all the time to keep them dry. They can't absorb any moisture if there's non in the gas surrounding them.

Lincoln have a write up on the problem of porosity with LH rods at the beginning of a weld. They reckon that you start maybe an inch away from the start of the weld and long arc for a couple of seconds to let the rod heat up and get the gases flowing then make your way to the start point ensuring you have a nice tight arc at the start, because not having a tight arc with LHs causes porosity too. I've forgot the whole explanation but it's along those lines. Kobe have some literature on their LB-52U lo-hi rods about how to avoid porosity at the start too. Seems porosity is often encountered with lo-hi rods if everything isn't done right.

Think I'm going to have to get some 7018s too. So both of you prefer 7018s too as do many others. Many welders have praised how nice 7014s weld and they too are medium iron powder like 7018s so maybe that helps them weld nice.

I don't so much dislike 13's, just satincrafts.
I like your idea for keeping the electrodes moisture free, it puts me in mind of the methods that telstra use to keep cables dry in underground environments. They pressurise the outer sheath of the cable so that leaks or breaks in sheathing are easily detectable by a drop in pressure.
You are correct that firesticks do have their place, they will penetrate like nothing else and their slag can usually be removed by a swipe with a wire brush. Moisture doesn't phase them, in fact many operators dip them in water before use. They are available in an E48XX, (70XX), version as well although they are more commonly used in the pipeline industry I believe.
When running low hydros, make sure that you keep your arc short, (DC excels at this), and you will often find that you can run less amperage than you would think.

Never used or even seen a 7016 here in the US. Where i have worked for the last 37 years its all 7018 and some 7014...Bob

Hey, I just skimmed through the thread but in my experience.....

The Austarc 16TC's are the superior rod in any situation. I don't mind using 7018's but the thicker, less fluid slag can get annoying just like 6013 rods.
I'll use 7018's when I need a higher deposition rate. The 16TC's are very easy to use out of position especially V-up. The slag is fluid and very thin so
you can really see the puddle properly which is important for out of position work. The slag chips off so much easier too because it's like glass.
I wouldn't say I use a box a month of these things but over the years I've burnt through more boxes of 16TC's than any other LH rod. Hope this helps

I have welded a lot of pressure vessel stuff with 16TCs and the then Cigweld LT 61s. Karl is correct the 16TC are great and give a superb ripple patten finish.

A welding coat is advised as the fluxes has a unique action in that the will "pop" now and again and spit out hot metal and flux.This is because of foreign material in the weld pool being ejected from same.

The hot metal and flux spatters can get into/ on to parts you just really don't want them to.

I would not worry unduly about electrode ovens unless you are getting into certified work,say P/vessel or Crane boons but they should be done under control of a certified welding Supervisor anyway. They are applicable in earth moving work.I keep mine in PVC tubes with dessicant pads (from prescription tablet packages) glued under the lids.

No problems with stored like that in wet & steamy FNQ.

Grahame

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

I have welded a lot of pressure vessel stuff with 16TCs and the then Cigweld LT 61s. Karl is correct the 16TC are great and give a superb ripple patten finish.

A welding coat is advised as the fluxes has a unique action in that the will "pop" now and again and spit out hot metal and flux.This is because of foreign material in the weld pool being ejected from same.

The hot metal and flux spatters can get into/ on to parts you just really don't want them to.

I would not worry unduly about electrode ovens unless you are getting into certified work,say P/vessel or Crane boons but they should be done under control of a certified welding Supervisor anyway. They are applicable in earth moving work.I keep mine in PVC tubes with dessicant pads (from prescription tablet packages) glued under the lids.

No problems with stored like that in wet & steamy FNQ.

Grahame

graham
thats a great idea for a new thread!
what parts of our body we have burnt and stuck to other parts when pos welding and oxy cutting etc.

Originally Posted by danielhobby

graham
thats a great idea for a new thread!
what parts of our body we have burnt and stuck to other parts when pos welding and oxy cutting etc.

Reminds me of a comedy skit seen some years ago where the comedian recounts his experiences at TAFE welding overhead. A piece of slag lands on his head while he is running the best bead he ever has and he is faced with the dilemma of what to do.
I don't want to stop because I am doing a really good weld, so I will put up with the pain and burning smell, but wait, what if it burns into the part of my brain that is letting me do this weld