Thread: which electric welder to get

Tig welds cast just fine, if your going to mig or even arc you really need to carbonise the job first, basically oxy the item till its nice and hot and then throw a carbon type dust onto it, sounds weird but works fine, else just tig it and hit it with a hammer as it cools to stress relieve it. The onlly way to test your penetration is with an xray or ultrasonically. Else you cut a sample piece up after welding to know if your settings are right. Hope this info helps
Steve

Ashore, sorry, might be missing something here but could you please clarify the penetration issue with the inverters ? I was under the impression that one could reverse polarity on DC to do the root runs - on the proviso that one has achieved correct joint preparation , it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I am aware of the arc blow issue with DC.

Ref. cast iron, it's probably dependent upon the type of cast we're dealing with. Some of the stuff just won't weld anyway. I've done both hot and cold weld procedures, preferring the hot which entails preheat to cherry-red and welding with 4816 then controlling ramp-down. Cold is a pain in the backside - short runs with controlled interpass utilising a nickel based electrode, then controlling ramp-down. The stuff usually cracks and then you have to back-gouge anyway.

Goodness me chaps! what are you doing? Stop trying to confuse our new would be welders!

What am I on about ?
A new bloke asks about buying a suitable welder and someone is writing how you can weld cast iron with it. Crikey!

THINK! please - new welder - no previous experience -beginner level machine . Come on Now!
The are several different types of cast iron some not easy to distinguish from each other and some of them not weldable at all .The result of not UNDERSTANDING exactly ,what how,when or why are not going to be good. Truly people,cast iron is really only something for very experienced welders.

As for inverters I cut and pasted this from one of the brand leaders websites with editing.Yes it mentions tig but the power source is interchangable for MMAW (stick)

Insert company blurb
(Today, the next generation of this technology - AC TIG inverter - features three advanced square wave technology capabilities.
First: The AC TIG inverter produces incredibly smooth, stable arcs because the squarewave is driven through the zero point thousands of times faster than a rectifier-based welder. XXXXXX’S inverters are so fast that its built-in, high frequency capabilities are used for arc starting only. They also offer Lift-Arc™ starting capabilities to eliminate the use of high frequency completely, even on AC.

Second: Inverter-based welders extend EN balance control. The ZXZXZXZXZX lets operators fine-tune duration times from 50 percent to 90 percent. Making the EN ( Electrode Negative) portion of cycle last longer achieves greater penetration; narrows the weld bead; increases travel speeds up to 20 percent; may permit using a smaller diameter tungsten to more precisely direct the heat or make a narrower weld bead; and, reduces the size of the etched zone for improved cosmetics )

OK! ITS me talking again
The inverter that most of us could afford will be DC therefore one can use DC -which would be normal 2/3 of heat input arc centered or alternately DC+ which you would use for stainless steel, low hydrogen type electrodes or even cast iron if you were experienced enough.

The perception that the inverter welder per se lacks penetration just is not true .It stems perhaps from the fact that they are much better at joining thin materials (OH god! we are back to that again ) Jokes aside the soft start and ultra controllable arc enables the arc not to explode a hole in thin section of material. I have (inverter)welded 4mm diameter mesh rod to 3mm diameter mesh rod.Try it with a choke stick welder and see how you fare.

Having said all that ,I still believe the humble stick is suitable for the majority of work most DIY blokes can throw at it.
Ok! rant over
let the flames begin

Grahame

As I pressed the submit button I had last minute rush of excrement to the brain.

Yeah! What, I so glaring omitted to mention, is that inverters such efficient units that they are,consume less power than their transformer cousins.

The equivalent settings for electrodes are far less for inverter than they are for the typical choked transformer stick system.

The local bloke that sells Fronios has taken the little 130 amp DC. "sling over shoulder model" home and used it without effect on the end of a 100m ext lead.


I have some stick work to do soon, so I'll do a pic series with some 2mm sticks on furniture tube.

Cheers
Grahame

we have had this debate 3 times in so many weaks
maybe we sould just have a poll and settle it once and for all

Grahame,
just what makes an "inverter" welder and how similar or dissimilar is it to the technology found in inverter air cons? I gather that instead of a variable transformer to get the required voltage and current electronic jiggery pokery is used instead. Can't see how this would apply to air cons as they don't use transformers (not as the main part of their workings at any rate) Don't know if you can answer this question, but it's been bugging me for a while now.

Mick

To answer that question is easier than convincing some that the stick welder is the weapon of choice when low cost, simplicity, reliability ease of use and versatility is concerned.

The transformer is a clumsy weighty bit of gear that steps down the input volts and increases amperage from the GPO. In doing so it generates heat. The heat loss is an energy loss which is paid in terms of less than 100% electrical efficiency available at the arc.

The inverter by comparison is light weight,extremely efficient supplying power which is easily managed by the machines' electronics to tailor the welding arc in ways unheard of in transformer machines.

Transformers in air con systems are often now replaced with inverters there because the units are not wasting up to 10% of their primary input as a straight heat loss.

Thats my understanding of it.

Grahame

I doubt you can buy any brand of AC/DC TIG for under $4k. And do you really need AC??? If not the price drop by about half or more.

Originally Posted by sinjin

I doubt you can buy any brand of AC/DC TIG for under $4k. And do you really need AC??? If not the price drop by about half or more.

I believe you can purchase a name brand AC/DC welder(s) below the amount specified.
I will not endorse a specific brand, however some may be built to reflect Aust. Standards- but that does not guarantee longetivity.
Best advice- let the buyer beware, you get what you pay for.

As for AC, depends what you weld.

Anthony you know of AC/DC TIGS for under 4k???

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Grahame,
just what makes an "inverter" welder and how similar or dissimilar is it to the technology found in inverter air cons?

Mick,

An inverter as used in an air conditioner is basically a variable-speed-drive for the compressor motor. Instead of switching the compressor on and off to control the temperature, the inverter slows the compressor to match the speed required to maintain the desired temperature setting.

Chris

You sir are correct! $4k won't buy and AC /DC Tig
.The reference was to counter the notion that some how inverter welders do not have ANY penetration.

The bloke making the enquiry lives in America .How then are we qualified to tell him about Australian 240 volt tools he might not have access to.Remember most of the yanks are wired to 110 volts at 60cycles and think 240 volts is heavy duty.
The man said "I would like a few ideas...just at a beginners cost if you would...no bells and whistles just want it to work ''.

To me a stick welder anda 5" angle grinder is as simple as it gets.
Grahame

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Goodness me chaps! what are you doing? Stop trying to confuse our new would be welders!

What am I on about ?
A new bloke asks about buying a suitable welder and someone is writing how you can weld cast iron with it. Crikey!

THINK! please - new welder - no previous experience -beginner level machine . Come on Now!
The are several different types of cast iron some not easy to distinguish from each other and some of them not weldable at all .The result of not UNDERSTANDING exactly ,what how,when or why are not going to be good. Truly people,cast iron is really only something for very experienced welders.

As for inverters I cut and pasted this from one of the brand leaders websites with editing.Yes it mentions tig but the power source is interchangable for MMAW (stick)

Insert company blurb
(Today, the next generation of this technology - AC TIG inverter - features three advanced square wave technology capabilities.
First: The AC TIG inverter produces incredibly smooth, stable arcs because the squarewave is driven through the zero point thousands of times faster than a rectifier-based welder. XXXXXX’S inverters are so fast that its built-in, high frequency capabilities are used for arc starting only. They also offer Lift-Arc™ starting capabilities to eliminate the use of high frequency completely, even on AC.

Second: Inverter-based welders extend EN balance control. The ZXZXZXZXZX lets operators fine-tune duration times from 50 percent to 90 percent. Making the EN ( Electrode Negative) portion of cycle last longer achieves greater penetration; narrows the weld bead; increases travel speeds up to 20 percent; may permit using a smaller diameter tungsten to more precisely direct the heat or make a narrower weld bead; and, reduces the size of the etched zone for improved cosmetics )

OK! ITS me talking again
The inverter that most of us could afford will be DC therefore one can use DC -which would be normal 2/3 of heat input arc centered or alternately DC+ which you would use for stainless steel, low hydrogen type electrodes or even cast iron if you were experienced enough.

The perception that the inverter welder per se lacks penetration just is not true .It stems perhaps from the fact that they are much better at joining thin materials (OH god! we are back to that again ) Jokes aside the soft start and ultra controllable arc enables the arc not to explode a hole in thin section of material. I have (inverter)welded 4mm diameter mesh rod to 3mm diameter mesh rod.Try it with a choke stick welder and see how you fare.

Having said all that ,I still believe the humble stick is suitable for the majority of work most DIY blokes can throw at it.
Ok! rant over
let the flames begin

Grahame

Good Afternoon Grahame,

Read your post/s with interest- particularly the edited version of a company blurb you provided. The following questions are worthwhile pondering:

Would you consider that the majority of information provided in the above blurb would be of benefit to a new Welder?

Would you consider that you may have further contributed to the confusion of some of the individuals on this thread?

I concur with the cast-iron issue.

I believe it more beneficial to obtain the information from the MEMS modules.

Regards

Originally Posted by sinjin

Anthony you know of AC/DC TIGS for under 4k???

Yes. WELDMASTER 160amp WELDMASTER 200 AMPS

Former was quoted $2000

Latter was quoted around $3200

They have a warranty- do the research and come to your own conclusions.

You can always look on EBAY - NEW from around $1800

As before- let the buyer beware.