Thread: here we go again - welder advice

I assume you realize that machine wont do TIG.
as it is a arc/mig machine.... or am i looking at the wrong one.

my opinion is if you do only little jobs with short welds a majority of the time.... then go with a TIG/ arc.

i love the TIG process as there is no spatter and as a result allot less mess. if you are ok with oxy then you will love TIG.

with steady hands it produces great welds. there is more of a knack involved.
Tig is a slow process compared to mig on most jobs. there is also more difficulty in tacking the bits together as TIG requires two hands. with a mig you can hold the job with one and weld with the other.

just my opinion

good luck

I would like to toss in some advice ,if I may.

It is to work out your potential requirements so you won't be paying for a machine twice.

Too many,no matter what they buy ,purchase on price only and find out out that they end up with something that was not suitable to their needs.

If indeed the sales person recommended that particular machine give him a big miss for starters.

Some of the inverter welder brand names like WIA and Cigweld can be purchased quite reasonably.

These units are DC output machines and can be often bought with the required reg and torch or as a package deal.Addittional to that a cylinder of argon will be required.

About the only thing right was the 160 amp range which seems about right for a home set up.

Grahame

For the price you guys pay for these fancy machines, you could but a very good quality stick welder, a good oxy set, and bottle rental for a while for the same price.

A lot more handy for a multitude of jobs IMO.

Well I'll go against the grain of the old timers here.

I have a jasic 250 (unimig copy) and it's worked well. It does stick and mig (gas/gasless). I've used both just to see. For home use I'd give up on stick and just go gassless mig straight off the bat. Mig gasless isn't really that expensive these days so it's a viable option over stick for home use. Works just as well as arc does and doesn't have any of that #### slag that you have to chip off and doesn't seem to suffer from slag inclusion etc. Just a wire brush and a light brush and it's off in seconds. No expensive gas bottle and it can weld thinner guages (2mm to thicker) without problems from experience. It may even weld thinner but haven't tried. Just make sure you get a serrated wheel to drive the gasless wire. Also get some decent (stiff) gasless wire. Kiswell worked quite well. The initial wire I bought was so soft it was almost like soldering wire and would get stuck in the tip, probably from the fact it was so soft it deformed before coming out of the tip due to the heat. Really frustrating experience wasting the entire roll nearly in jams. When I got the kiswell wire I could see the different in stiffness and it worked without a hitch.

I also think the cheaper welding units these days get a raw review. I don't think there is anything wrong with them if you are going to use them for home use. Commercial work may warrant the extra costs but I can't see it for a home user. Sure the WIA, CIG units can be had at a "lower" price but at the same time they have a much lower current rating and duty cycle than the cheaper imports for that price and lets get real they are still made in china anyway. The only thing to look out for is that you can buy consumables and spares here. With the jasic I was able to pop into my local welding shop and order the serrated wheel for gassless wire and it came the next day. If I was desparate I could of had it the same day but I was in no hurry. Since Jasic uses the same parts it seems as unimig which is supported in Australia it wasn't an issue. As Grahame says make sure you buy a machine whose spec meets your needs though. 160A sounds about right. I went for 250A just because I could to give me some margin for other work I may do in the future.

Originally Posted by glen boulton

I assume you realize that machine wont do TIG.
as it is a arc/mig machine.... or am i looking at the wrong one.

That is the one - and if I am correct it is identical to this Jasic.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/JASIC-Mig160-...|39:1|240:1318
when I say it does scratch tig, I am only repeating sales talk and here I certainly take into account the fact that salespeople as Graham indicates are an unreliable source.

Okay so let's try another tack (pun was unintentional).

Fact 1, Taking it that a DC welder should help improve my skill level I definitely want a stick welder and it must be DC.

Fact 2, !60 amp is probably an acceptable power for the work I am likely to do, although I could possibly go a bit more -say 200 amps.

Fact 3, Tig sounds attractive for the reasons that Glen gives - "no spatter and as a result allot less mess. if you are ok with oxy then you will love TIG.
with steady hands it produces great welds. there is more of a knack involved.
Tig is a slow process "

Fact 4, A decent stick will cost around $500-$600 - and I expect that if I were to buy one that has decent tig capability then I would need to be looking at $1000 - $1400; is that about right?

Fact 5, If I go tig then I shall have the extra expense of gas and I need to figure that out and then wear the cost, whereas I could possibly go gasless mig - a process of which I have no experience, also I am wary of the extra complexity of the mechanics involved with the spool, wire, sheath etc.

Fossils suggestion of stick and an oxy set had passed my mind but I consider that the cost of maintaining hoses gauges etc plus the cost of bottles and gas - it would not be practical for the amount of use.


Taking into account all of the above is one reason that the stick/mig/tig interested me, although I also wonder, what is the reason there aren't many units that boast all three. After all I don't wish to buy a lemon.


Denn

help me out here Grahame Collins.....
i have never seen a machine do MIG, TIG, ARC before. and i cant see the connections on this machine either. I know it says it.

one thing i didn't say Denn is although the TIG is a great way of welding....you don't get it because it's cheep. TIG welders are allot dearer to buy. i just like them because i have done a fair bit on them.

Miller had made a machine to do this specifically for training colledges.They were from memory $6 to $7 K each.
As you see theres not a lot of that configuratuion around the place .Not in Diy ,not in industry.If it was sucessful they would be all doing it ,and they are not.

While Jasic may be well be a reasonable machine, in standard configurations, I don't think there's enough manufacturing sale experience /common usage backgound with that combination of modes.

They are are complicated power source to understand and run let alone repair when things go wrong.
They are best left alone until they are common place.

Grahame

Thanks for that Glen and Graham, as said in my last post I had wondered about the machine boasting all three systems.

So here are my present thoughts - taking into consideration that I will be unlikely to have a need for welding anything heavy or any exotic alloys - think mild steel, spring steel or tool steel - from 1mm up to a max of 10mm.

1, buy a stick/tig - must have gas for the tig. my previous experience with oxy may help.

2, A stick/mig - could go gas or gasless - a bit more of a learning curve as I have never used mig before. I also wonder how reliable are the mechanics of the wire feed system.

3, A basic DC stick welder and an oxy set - certainly will allow a great deal of flexibility but I imagine with two gas bottles plus equipment maintainance it would be more expensive.

4, The final scenario would be to buy a basic DC welder and leave the rest untill a later date when I have had time to properly evaluate how my skills are developing etc; however the thing is that the offer and the money are on the table NOW, not 100% sure but I think between $1000 and $1500

So some questions are,

What is the difference between the cost of pure argon for tig and agonshield for mig?

What would the cost of bottle rental and refills be on oxy acetylene?

What in terms of maintainance/safety checks are needed on the oxy gear?

Why for basic welding of steel would I choose between mig or tig,

Denn

Gday Denn,

These machines can legitimately offer the three processes in one and in fact its relatively simple. I read a long post about it on a UK forum somewhere, and unfortunately cant find it now. The bloke road tested his 3 in one unit and all three processes definately worked.

Ill be going for a straight TIG inverter though, as if im really keen for an AD/DC unit with high frequency start, which is something the 3 in 1 cant offer (DC only scratch start). Obviously I want AC for aluminum. One could argue that you could spool up your mig with ally, but really I prefer the TIG process so im getting a dedicated TIG unit. My thoughts on two of your questions are below.


What would the cost of bottle rental and refills be on oxy acetylene?

Depends on the many different sizes available. When I got quoted for Oxy I was looking at $360 a year rental for the two bottles, plus gas. This was for a small bottle (smallest or second smallest I think). TIG obviously needs a bottle too, plus an initial outlay of $1200 for a machine. But this would pay itself off over time when the oxy is costing you double in ongoing costs.

Why for basic welding of steel would I choose between mig or tig.

Mig is fast...way faster than TIG. When you get good at it you can lay down thick slugs of weld quickly. However they are not as visually appealing as TIG beads. I also leant towards TIG as its what my engineer prefers for the bike frame im building. Its possible to lay down a mig weld that looks beautiful but which has penetrated poorly, resulting in a weak join. However its much harder to do this with TIG....if the weld looks good, its probably sound.

Originally Posted by dennford

So some questions are,

What is the difference between the cost of pure argon for tig and agonshield for mig?

What would the cost of bottle rental and refills be on oxy acetylene?

What in terms of maintainance/safety checks are needed on the oxy gear?

Why for basic welding of steel would I choose between mig or tig,

Denn

1. Pure argon costs more. Argosheild is a mixture of argon, carbon dioxide and oxygen, it can only be used for MIG welding. You only use argon and helium (straight and mixed with argon) for TIG welding, helium gives greater penetration but affects arc stability.

2. If Supagas serves your area, BOC, CoreGas and AirLiquide will cost more. If it is part of your hobby then its not overly expensive when you think about it.

3. Aside from making sure your hoses are good, use good quality gear (Cigweld, Harris, Victor etc) and it is a good idea to have flashback arrestors although they are not strictly needed. According to a BOC employe he has heard of plenty of fires but he has never seen one go any further than the regulator.

4. I dont know why anyone would use a MIG welder for normal home use, only advantages is its small learing curve, speed and ability to weld thinner materials. A TIG machine (most have a manual arc option) will be better suited over a MIG. Excellent weld quality and you always have the option of breaking out the stinger and laying down rods when the situation calls for it.

Originally Posted by DeltaNegative

4. I dont know why anyone would use a MIG welder for normal home use, only advantages is its small learing curve, speed and ability to weld thinner materials. .

I agree about the small learning curve. Most blokes can weld with a MIG if it has been set right. Even a bad weld looks OK to an untrained eye. But as you mentioned, they often hide their flawed weld.

I found welding thinner material easier with a TIG, and i have welded car panels with it as well, i guess thats just me. mind you most TIG work i have done has been on stainless and alloy right down to 1.2 mm alloy. I haven't done much mild steel work with one. Mind you it takes practice before you get vertical ups, vertical downs and upside down positional welds looking good. so the small jobs that you can roll around on the bench is the best.

If you are OK with an oxy ...then you will find adapting to a TIG easy. Yes a bit of practice. but good fun.

A MIG is a cheaper option and if i was going to build a trailer than i would buy a MIG as it is a great fabrication machine for heavier steels. Also the MIG is easier for positional welding ie: laying on your back, reaching over draw bars etc etc

I have never used a gas less MIG successfully. (someone else's machine at someone else's house though) it was in structural steel too. I have been told gas less MIG is not for thick steel ?????( dont know if this is true)

So i guess it goes back to what you are going to use it for. The TIG is traditionally dearer than a MIG.

THE ANSWER

Get a TIG for little jobs
Get a MIG for bigger jobs
Get a plasma cutter for cutting up the jobs if they don't turn out right.

sic

Originally Posted by dennford

What in terms of maintainance/safety checks are needed on the oxy gear?

I recently finished a TAFE module on this actually.
There's quite a lot of do's and don'ts. All your general welding safety applies of course.

Cylinders should be upright securely attached to something, away from heat, away from chances of knocking it or hitting it. Don't let any arcs hit it. If you're storing them for a while and not using them, keep them separate.

Cylinder valve and seat has to be dry and clean. No grease on it. Check it for damage. Crack the valve before you stick the regulator on.

Regulators should be clean free from grease. Face the gauges away when you open up the cylinder in case they fly off. Have the regulator wound out when you open up the cylinder and don't open more than one turn so you can quickly shut off in an emergency. Then set your regulator pressure.

I believe the Australian standard has flashback arrestors on both ends of the hose. Make sure they are facing the correct way.

Open up your torch to check it's the working pressure and the line is flowing. Generally you need to adjust the regulator a little at this point. Then close the torch back to set up your other regulator.

Light it with a flint not a lighter.

Don't draw too much acetylene per hour. I think it's 1/10th the cylinder volume per hour maximum. Otherwise acetone froths out into the regulator.

Acetylene off first when you're done.

Purge your hoses after you've shut off the cylinders.

Actually oxy welding is pretty versatile. You can heat stuff for bending, weld, braze, cut and gouge really thick material. Just using different attachments for the torch. No need for a power point so you can wheel your cylinders out in the middle of nowhere and still weld.

I'm really tempted to get a kit now I've done the module but I already splurged on a TIG machine.

Originally Posted by glen boulton

I have never used a gas less MIG successfully. (someone else's machine at someone else's house though) it was in structural steel too. I have been told gas less MIG is not for thick steel ?????( dont know if this is true)

What in particular did not work for gasless mig and what constitutes success?

I ask about your definition of success because you will not get the super smooth finish as with gas and admittadly these is some splatter so some people consider that as failure but frankly the finish isn't that bad, a hell of alot better than with arc in alot of cases. As to thickness it's all about prep. You can't go slapping together 10mm thick steel plates and expect to weld all the way through on the first run. Like in arc prep work is needed to bevel thick edges and do multiple passes buidling it up. Really gasless mig to me is close to arc welding with rods but much simpler and better control and no slag making the job much quicker. Of course if you buy a crap machine that can only do 80A and runs 0.6mm wire with 3 settings for voltage rather than a continous variable knob don't expect to do thick steel without alot of prep work and alot of passes. Mig machines with knobs that enable you to use 3 pre-set settings are a bit of a joke and I'd avoid at all costs.

Note that the settings between gas and gasless mig are not the same so if you tried to weld something using gas settings you'll probably find that you needed to run harder with gasless for the same weld. Pplenty people it seems are scared to experiment on a piece of scrap and try to use settings from tables intended for gas mig on gasless which isn't going to work.

I've used gasless with great success on a couple of projects now. So much so that I doubt I will ever touch the arc welding side of my machine ever again, not because I don't know how but because it's just less work all around. Works just as well, no slag and very configurable as to how hot you run compared to arc welding whose sticks have a preferred range which means that if you try to run below it for thinner stuff the results are mixed and you don't need to stop to replace rods on long runs. Tacking is much simpler too.

I'm guessing gassless mig machine of the past (3 pre-set voltages to chose from etc) were rubbish and hence the bad rep. I can understand given the limited configuration that such machines could run in and couldn't be fine tuned for optimal results but something inbetween.

yes it was a cheep machine with only settings 1,2,3 and it would have been lucky to be .6 wire. i might add at this point that as soon as he brought it out and i saw it, i didn't want to use it !!! so that doesn't help.

the MIG i normally use is a 3 phase and runs 1.2mm wire.
the job was joining "U" 12mm top and bot with 6mm web. yes i could have done many runs but i had my stick on the truck and i can crank it up and melt good 3mm sticks in it.

so montee your right... i didn't want to learn that day, i felt is was a toy compared to the job at hand.

let me add.... i would never use a TIG for that job either.
i probably just confused dennford