Thread: Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

In a series of videos, Ian Bruce gives an excellent tutorial on the new Byte CII rig. The first of these new boats arrives at our club this weekend and we expect to see many more. The rig has been developed here in Australia by Julian Bethwaite and Ian McDermid and will be built as a one design by Neill Pryde. The boat is initially imported into Australia, but will soon be built not far from where I live by Performance Sailcraft, the builders of the Laser.

These videos are very instructive and I'm sure you will all enjoy them.

Byte Class :: International Association

So... has MIK gotten back to you Rick (he seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth after Sail Oklahoma, or has someone heard from him?)?

Any news on the final rigging arrangement(s) and has the hull gone 3D yet (I guess not, but I cannot stop myself from following up on this now and again as the project looks so very promising )

Joost

Originally Posted by woodeneye

In a series of videos, Ian Bruce gives an excellent tutorial on the new Byte CII rig. The first of these new boats arrives at our club this weekend and we expect to see many more. The rig has been developed here in Australia by Julian Bethwaite and Ian McDermid and will be built as a one design by Neill Pryde. The boat is initially imported into Australia, but will soon be built not far from where I live by Performance Sailcraft, the builders of the Laser.

These videos are very instructive and I'm sure you will all enjoy them.

Byte Class :: International Association

Hi Woodeneye. Good that you mention the Byte CII rig as it might be a good model for an efficient stayless rig on a small boat like the GIS12. The sail is self-depowering in gusts, as the flexible topmast bends in the gusts. I'm sure MIK is onto it as he aways is.The regular Byte rig and other triangular sails like it, are flattened and depowered by bending the mast with the sheet, and this closes the leech. Gusts overpower the standard rig and it needs a relatively heavy crew to keep the boat upright. Lighter crews are not competitive. The CII rig was adapted from skiff rigs to the Byte dinghy to extend its use to lighter teenage crews. The tension from the cunningham bends the mast, flattens the sail and opens the leech. The tension is spread evenly through the sail by full-length battens so no wrinkles develop. I used these ideas to design a 3.5 sM flat top mainsail for a sailing canoe (Hugh Horton's Bufflehead). The sail has 3 battens, the top one at an angle to create the flat top. The mast is in two parts, the top part being thin and flexible (wood and glass) and the bottom half stiff (wood and alu tube). Instead of a boom with outhaul and vang it has a sprit boom whose snotter flattens the bottom half of the sail and a downhaul that works like the cunningham on the Byte CII to bend the topmast and flatten the upper part of the sail and open the leech. As with the Byte CII the topmast is "prebent" by some downhaul tension to give it initial stiffness. The sail was cut (by Storm Bay Sails in Tasmania) to match the prebend and the flexibility of the topmast. Control line Clamcleats are on a little platform on the mast so the lines don't stop the mast from turning. The system works in my lawn sailing tests. I haven't built the boat yet.


Peter


www.ps2000.ca/boats/byte/CII_rig_and_sail_manual.pdf


Rigging a Byte sailboat - YouTube

I had the opportunity on the w/e to have an up close inspection of the Byte CII. Very impressed with the amount of control available with the CII rig. The sail is larger than the Laser Radial and not much smaller than the full rig, and it looks very powerful. The mast works so well that it's hard to believe it's a 2 piece. For all the available control it's still all very simple with the lines all handy from a fully hiked position. The central cockpit traveler is a nice touch and the cleat is well positioned so that you can play the traveler instead of the mainsheet when going upwind. Mast bend is achieved with the very powerful Cunningham (downhaul), so the rig can dispense with boom end sheeting. Unlike the Laser, the mast can be bent completely without any application of vang or mainsheet! This is due to the bolt rope doing all the work, whereas in the Laser it is the cloth which is stretched. As a result, the CII sail will have a much longer life than that of the tortured Laser sail.

The hull is 12' so it's nearly 2' shorter than the Laser, but the beam is the same. The Byte borrows the Laser's rudder, which I think must have been a cost consideration aspect because I'm not fussed with the 78 deg blade angle which acts like a brake. On the plus side, this does develop better steering habits as you become very aware of the effect of too much tiller movement. It also borrows the Laser's dagger board shape and profile (incidentally, also the same as the GIS), but the board is much shorter due to the low profile cb casing. Both rudder and dagger board can easily fit into the cockpit, unlike the Laser! There is a large capacity self bailer which sucks really well to keep the cockpit dry. The bevel on the cockpit edge should relieve some pressure on the calves when hiking.

I'm hopeful of getting the opportunity to take it for a sail next w/e.

Some iPhone pics:

image4.jpgimage3.jpgimage2.jpgimage.jpgphoto.jpg

Howdy ...

yes fell off the edge of the earth. Badly sick for my stay in the USA. Only half better when I headed back to the Philippines. Now back from Taiwan and again in the Philippines.

One pleasant distraction is meeting a nice girl. I've a strong hunch she might be the right one (should I be saying that here in this public space?).

I'm currently working on a sailmaking project that I hope will mean modest priced sails of my simplified sail designs for the Goat, Beth, the OzRacers (lug and sprit) - like the DIY sail designs I provide for some of my designs - being supplied to the USA, Australia and Europe (and other points). It will be a bit of time in the making - Initially just selling the sailcloth. As we all know the price of sails is the single biggest expense for amateur boatbuilding.

Next year I will be in Manila for six months (I can rent a house for about $125/month - which works out well for my "save money living in Asia so I can afford to live in Australia the other six months" scheme). Still get some side trips in - Malaysia is $50, Taiwan $80 one way.

Still have to find a place to store the cloth that is accessible so can order the large amount required and start selling locally. Then work up towards the sail manufacture next year. Big logistics hurdles are the large amount of sailcloth I need to order to get the good prices and setting up reliable and mostly self managing labour here in the Philippines. At least I have local help!

I will also be looking at simplified sails for other boats waaaay down the line. Probably only stock sails - no one offs.

MIK

I hope you are feeling better now, but at least it looks like that you are in high spirits (possibly also due to the "nice distraction"...).

Good that you are looking into cheap simple sails that still work well. Indeed the sails are relatively quite a high cost factor, especially for the smaller hulls that do not require many materials to build. A reliable source would be good and I for one would like to buy from a source where I know that the designer has a large hand in it (a bit of sponsoring of the designer) knowing that the sails will be of decent quality, will be right for the hull and will have a good price.

Best wishes,

Joost

MIK, I'm glad that you're healthy again and keen on developing new things from your new situation. As well as sails, how about developing a flat pack kit for the evolving GIS12 to sell so that families or clubs can build racing boats for much less than the current crop of boats for teenagers that you rail against? Revisiting the 50s and 60s with new techniques. But do families have the time now? Maybe they'd rather work to get the money for a Byte CII instead of building something themselves in the time they'd spend working?
Peter

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy ...

yes fell off the edge of the earth. Badly sick for my stay in the USA. Only half better when I headed back to the Philippines. Now back from Taiwan and again in the Philippines.

One pleasant distraction is meeting a nice girl. I've a strong hunch she might be the right one (should I be saying that here in this public space?).

I'm currently working on a sailmaking project that I hope will mean modest priced sails of my simplified sail designs for the Goat, Beth, the OzRacers (lug and sprit) - like the DIY sail designs I provide for some of my designs - being supplied to the USA, Australia and Europe (and other points). It will be a bit of time in the making - Initially just selling the sailcloth. As we all know the price of sails is the single biggest expense for amateur boatbuilding.

Next year I will be in Manila for six months (I can rent a house for about $125/month - which works out well for my "save money living in Asia so I can afford to live in Australia the other six months" scheme). Still get some side trips in - Malaysia is $50, Taiwan $80 one way.

Still have to find a place to store the cloth that is accessible so can order the large amount required and start selling locally. Then work up towards the sail manufacture next year. Big logistics hurdles are the large amount of sailcloth I need to order to get the good prices and setting up reliable and mostly self managing labour here in the Philippines. At least I have local help!

I will also be looking at simplified sails for other boats waaaay down the line. Probably only stock sails - no one offs.

MIK

I like the Byte's new rig, but the hull?!? Looks like a Laser rip off to me (same bow and hull sections it seems with a slightly optimised interior - designer Ian Bruce for the Byte commissioned the Laser designed by Bruce Kirby). But I have never seen one in the flesh, let alone sailed one, so my comments may be competely invalid.

As for the Storer 12 (has it been properly christened yet?), a rig as for the Byte II may be over the top for a lot of people who would like it for general sailing, albeit on a sporty note. I would (still) like a version that is easy and fast to rig for a couple of hours sailing after work. The hull would be better suited than the GIS for such use (at least for me): lighter and smaller and thus easier to handle both on land and on the water, no aft buoyancy tank like the GIS so easy to drain through a drain plug in the transom when parked on a trolley in the dinghy park with its nose up and tail down, clean interior with few posibilities for water to be trapped anywhere causing rot issues.

Having pondered about the possible sail options the past few months, at least 2 rigs may be best allowing people to choose between the fast and furious and a bit more relaxed sailing (but still fast). The latter rig should be simple to use (though have the usual sail control systems), easy and fast to rig and allow for enough speed to be exiting and fun (especially when it starts to blow).

One advantage that the Byte has is low cost due to mass production. US$4000 for a complete boat and rig isn't bad, although admittedly most of this cost is in the rig. If looked after, the Byte carbon rig with Mylar sail will last for many years, unlike the Laser's which is lucky to last a season in windy coastal sailing like we have here. This means the cost of ownership is greatly reduced over the years and boats will have good resale value. I used to think Mylar sails didn't last long, but this is not true. We have Impulses and windsurfers at our club still using 15-20 year old rigs that are almost as good as new. If sails are fully battened, they do not flog when sitting on the beach, so this contributes to a much longer life.

The Byte hull is very old school - really a 1970s iteration of hull design with very nice industrial design - it caters to people who THINK they know what a fast boat should look like.

Look at Skiff, NS14, National 12s and UK Cherubs - scow moths introduced this in the early '80s to solve nosediving and helm problems) to see where hull design is really going. Wide sterns are silly for handling and performance. But the wide stern on the byte does allow the low freeboard and dishy shape cockpit for easy boarding after a capsize. But you can't do the sudden narrowing of the stern of the modern boats with that dishy type hull. Though you can do the increased flatness and volume of the centrecase and forward compared to 1970s veed designs.

MIK

I totally agree Mik. The Byte fills the niche for lightweight junior sailors who are too small for other single handers so its not really an adult's boat. At our club the interest is from juniors just out of Optis and Bics, and lighter seniors in their late 70s/early 80s who can no longer manage bigger boats, both on and off the water.

There is nothing else available in this category as a class world wide, or in Australia for that matter. Performance is really secondary to the class and organisation, a bit like Laser. You don't sail one for the performance, although the Byte at 45 kg rigged with a 45-50kg helm can make them go pretty quick with the sexy new rig. It is the new junior Olympic boat, so that status has given the class a good kick along.

We are seeing a lot of 2 person boats really struggling now. Seems that single handers have a much better chance of succeeding as a class these days.

Good to have you kicking around the forum again, so a big welcome back and good news that you're now better health wise. Looking forward to seeing some progress on the 12'er

Hi Mik,

As you are sending messages I guess you have not been washed away by the typhoon. I saw some really terrible scenes on TV. Much worse than Hurricane Sandy in the US but only a fraction of the news. We all know the New York area but who knows the Philippines?

Peter

Howdy,

I am safe in Manila - all the Typhoon was in the far south. So we have just hot humid and kind of airless weather in Manila.

Looks like weather uncertainty means my maiden sail in the Philippines will be called off tomorrow. Was going with Roy Espiritu's B&B17 (I think it is the 17.

He is the webmaster for the very active Pinoy boatbuilders group

This is supposed to be the good time of year for sailing because of no typhoons. Just like the USA!

MIK

Hello,

Any progress made with regard to the outfitting of the MS12 under development?

Surfing the internet I noticed the rig that the PT 11 dinghy (PT Watercraft) is using. This rig is very light and easy and fast to set up. Rather than a gooseneck it uses carbon jaws with some heavy stiff tape sewn to the ends of it protecting the mast. Quite smart.

It is using a lot of high end materials (read carbon), but a lower tech alternative may work as well (albeit at the cost of a small weigth penaltly).

Just throwing around ideas.

Joost