Thread: Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

That is sad. The hull design looks so promising.

The project indeed seems to have died. And it is sad as the concept and hull design looked very promising.

Not sure either why the project went sour. Rick has all components cut out and ready for assembly (I understand that the prototype was never put together). Not sure what went wrong but at a first glance it seems the indecisiveness regarding the choice of rig. The project deserved better I think. Do you know more Bruce?

Where is MIK anyway: he has been very quiet recently.

Well, time to start considering other potential projects.

Joost

Originally Posted by Joost

The project indeed seems to have died. And it is sad as the concept and hull design looked very promising.

Where is MIK anyway: he has been very quiet recently.

Joost

He is fairly active on the Facebook GIS pages - posted earlier today about the GIS map.

HTH

Fearghas

Originally Posted by Joost

The project indeed seems to have died. And it is sad as the concept and hull design looked very promising.

Not sure either why the project went sour. Rick has all components cut out and ready for assembly (I understand that the prototype was never put together). Not sure what went wrong but at a first glance it seems the indecisiveness regarding the choice of rig. The project deserved better I think. Do you know more Bruce?

Where is MIK anyway: he has been very quiet recently.

Well, time to start considering other potential projects.

Joost

Okay, there is quite a backstory going on with this project. But here is where we are at. This email was from yesterday:

Hello Mr. Landreville,

Thank you for your inquiry for the sail for your 12 ft dinghy. Your sailplan has been noted: we are glad to state our offer as follows:

Fully battened Mainsail, 4.256m luff x 1.822m foot with 3 pcs full length battens and 1 set of reef, to be made of 4.9 oz Challenge High Modulus Dacron, white @C$523.00.

Terms: 50% deposit with order, balance on delivery, HST is not included. We accept personal cheque, Visa and MasterCard;

Delivery: In about 5 weeks, ex our Vancouver office.

We would propose a boltrope at the luff to go into a groove at the mast and loose foot. Upon ordering, please advise the diameter of the groove. We are open to your alternative suggestion.

Please contact us if you have any questions. We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best regards,

William Kwan
LEE SAILMAKERS LTD
P. O. Box 19567
Vancouver, BC, Canada, V5T 4E7.
Phone/Fax: (604) 685-1234
Toll Free: 1-800-533-9567
Email: [email protected]

Originally Posted by tpb03

That is sad. The hull design looks so promising.

There was never an issue with the hull. The hull is pretty sexy looking, IMHO. The issue was the rig. I have an old Laser, and Laser masts and rigs are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. MIK was struggling with a rig design that was easily replicated, and at some point he relegated himself to adopting the rig for this hull. Well, I was not impressed. The idea of a 2013 boat with a 1973 rig was not my idea of what this project should be about. It almost seemed like I had 'cheaped out' and built a wooden Laser to replace a worn out hull. A person in these parts can purchase a used Laser in functional racing shape for less than $1500, and in sailing shape for less than $750. So there was little incentive in spending that much to have a wooden boat that was neither a Laser, nor anything that you could race. So I dragged my feet. I had no incentive to finish a hull I would never use, and I felt was wrong for the purpose.
After almost a year of procrastination, I finally sent MIK an email to express my concerns and I was delighted to find out he had the same reservations! So the last week there has been a flurry of correspondence between the two of us regarding what type of rig to use, the materials for the mast, stayed or unstayed, sock luff or a track, etc. We are close, but not quite there yet.
One of the discussions is about intended usage, and the demographic that would either be purchasing these plans or using this boat. In my opinion, this is not a Son Of Goat. The hull is much too modern, and the rig will be as modern as the hull. It is really a one person boat with capacity for two, and geared more towards a club racer than a cruiser or family boat. The Goat Island Skiff is none of these things.
Because of these considerations, it will still be a smaller project than the GIS, and may attract people looking for a starter or entry level woodworking project, or a entry level or starter sailboat. So to design it too tender and high performance may make it too much boat for a novice. On the other hand, to make it too docile will frustrate those with experience looking for a spirited boat.
MIK may have other criteria on his mind when he eventually responds to this, so I am not speaking for him in any way. But I felt that the boat that we have all waited for this long, should be more than a modern hull with a Laser rig.

I hope you all understand, and stay patient.

Rick.

Ok, I've made my popcorn and I'm staying tuned in again.....

Thanks for the update Rick and confirming my thoughts that the rig choice was causing the issues (delay as it turns out).

Very glad the project is not dead. Looking forward to reading, in time, the outcome of your discussions regarding the choice of rig and very good that the discussion is now taken to a different level.

Fully agree with your comments regarding usuage. This is not a smaller version of the GIS (that would require the capability to row, a lug rig, traditional looks and an open interior like the GIS IMHO). Your ideas about what the boat should be able to do seem to match my own. A clear design challenge for MIK to have the boat appeal to widish range of people as you so clearly indicate in your post.

Staying tuned in as well here!

Joost

Good things come to those who wait. In this case, the good thing is a rig to match the hull, which the way it should be (IMHO).

Thanks Rick, good to hear it's still alive!

I guess you really mean a 1973 "designed" rig, as otherwise your statement rules out aluminium/wooden spars and dacron sails. In concept, I agree that a modern boat deserves a modern rig. The problem is that the really hard part is not hull design. The easy part is already done. The hard part is the rig development, so herein lies the problem. To put a modern rig on our 12 footer will take years of development and a lot of expense to get it right with cheaper materials like wood/aluminium/dacron. There was a massive amount of development that went into the very simple Byte CII rig designed by Julian Bethwaite, which is the type of self-depowering rig required for the S12. Out on the water, the rig defines the boat. It would be fantastic to have something distinctive, that says, "there goes a Storer 12", but this will take effort, time and money.

Originally Posted by woodeneye

Thanks Rick, good to hear it's still alive!

I guess you really mean a 1973 "designed" rig, as otherwise your statement rules out aluminium/wooden spars and dacron sails. In concept, I agree that a modern boat deserves a modern rig. The problem is that the really hard part is not hull design. The easy part is already done. The hard part is the rig development, so herein lies the problem. To put a modern rig on our 12 footer will take years of development and a lot of expense to get it right with cheaper materials like wood/aluminium/dacron. There was a massive amount of development that went into the very simple Byte CII rig designed by Julian Bethwaite, which is the type of self-depowering rig required for the S12. Out on the water, the rig defines the boat. It would be fantastic to have something distinctive, that says, "there goes a Storer 12", but this will take effort, time and money.

I'm not in agreement with you regarding rig development being the harder part. It almost makes it sound like one has to reinvent the wheel. MIK could easily go with a Byte rig, but at over $2500 for a complete setup, we can most likely come up with 95% of the performance for less than one third of the cost.
In Australia, there has been a lot of development with the NS14 rig, and MIK is quite familiar with it. To build something similar from scratch would be like 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. All the heavy lifting has been done, the money spent and the time utilized.
He used the basic platform from the NS rig to develop his simplified sails he uses on all his other boats. To mimic more features of the rig, such as the mast rotation, the batten sizing and placements, the shroud set-up etc. will make for a rig that will be 'modern' without a lot of developmental issues.
This is not to say it is a done deal, but we are getting closer to implimenting a square headed una rig that will look like it belongs on this hull. I am very excited about how this is coming along.

Rick.

95% performance compared what is technically possible if spending large amounts of money sounds good to me. 85% would still very much outperform the Laser rig.

Another thing to consider if using Laser rigs is the large wear and tear due to the enormous downhaul and kicker forces applied.

The main reason that the use of the Laser rig was advocated (also by me) at the start of the project is the availability of parts against very reasonable prices when using second hand or replica parts. A modern square head rig would be more suited from the perspective of performance and looks, for sure if it can be obtained for the same (or a slightly increased) price.

I do think that the costs of the rig must somewhat relate to the costs of the hull in order for people to consider the boat. From that perspective alone the $2,500 Byte rig cannot be considered.

Anyway, very much looking forward to seeing what MIK is cooking up.

Joost

Joost, don't underestimate the performance of the Radial rig. Even though the Radial and the CII sails are about the same in area, the Radial is still much faster around a course. The CII allows much lighter sailors however, due to the self depowering effect of the rig. However the CII gives away a lot of power compared to the more manual and physical Radial. This is why it was selected as the junior Olympic class.

As for the cost, I consider that $2500 for the CII rig to be a bargain. It's a well sorted and robust rig that provides amazing control and its very durable. It will last forever without much maintenance if given reasonable care. I'm still not advocating it though as S12 needs its own rig, as that is what defines the GIS and its success. A high quality home built fully battened rig should be possible to achieve for under $1500 all up if using a commercially made sail. Cheaper if the sail is home built.

Rick, as a matter of interest, what is the area of the proposed sail you were quoted? Is the mast rigid like the Ns14?

balls laser mast cross section sketch rotating round.JPGHere is some more fodder.

So still two options (sock luff and track - free standing mast and rotating stayed mast)?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages (buidling, rigging and sailing) so it will be interesting to see what the final choice will be.

Joost