Thread: Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I'm starting to think how a 14ft two person boat would go hehe
MIK

A 14' hard chined cat with wave piercing bow, asymmetric kite flown off a prodder and maybe a trapeze would be cool.

Rick,
what is the bill of materials looking like? I assume something like 4 sheets of 4mm and 2 sheets of 6mm ply?
I cant wait to see this on the water.

Mik,
If you design a 14fter, could it be made so it conforms to the NS/MG14 rules?

My initial thoughts are that the ply might be too tortured and waterline too narrow to meet the width requirements and get the mid hull measurement point lined up. This could be achieved through a chine at the mid point though. It would be interesting to see how such a hull would look.

Tim

Originally Posted by tpb03

Mik,
If you design a 14fter, could it be made so it conforms to the NS/MG14 rules?

My initial thoughts are that the ply might be too tortured and waterline too narrow to meet the width requirements and get the mid hull measurement point lined up. This could be achieved through a chine at the mid point though. It would be interesting to see how such a hull would look.

Tim

I think it would make sense to just take an NS14 rig (on our wood mast) and fit the same beam and length. There is a bottom width restriction in the NS14 rule down low on the hull towards the middle to ensure the boat has enough stability but everything outside that point has been hacked away to reduce wetted surface and reduce hull curvature as well as spread out the volumes more along the length of the boat.

The beam of the hull including fittings and gunwale assembly, at its widest points shall be between 1.60m
and 1.83m. The beam when measured at 2.50m aft from the fore perpendicular (as used in taking the
measurement in rule 11.3.1) and 200mm above the bottom of the centreline of the hull, with the boat
upright, shall not be less than 1.22m.

Compare to what we can do with a flat bottom. The rules at 2.5m from the bow have repercussions.

NS14 in ply rules and bottom width.JPG

See the 1435mm line that is 200mm from the bottom line? That point is require by the rule.

The 1829mm is the maximum beam. There are two maximum beams marked. One at the lowest possible deck height from the keel which gives you the narrowest possible bottom 1120 wide which is too wide to be competitive with the NS hull photo above.

If the freeboard is increased the bottom becomes wider - 1210mm or almost another 100mm wider.

One nice thing to do would be to do a bilge panel. But there are problems in that to meet the stem it has to be twisted from the angle shown to vertical. This means bigger tensions requiring a lot of stitches to make it all hold together. Additionally the computer doesn't like twisted panels much and always gets them a bit wrong.

NS14 in ply rules and bottom width 2.JPG

But I don't think you could directly compete with the NS hull and meet that mid height rule. It doesn't allow the narrow flat bottom that would make it competitive within the NS14 rules but maybe they would accept a cheaper boat as a feeder class if it was similar enough with a simplified hull shape.

The shape of the National 12s in the photo below shows the difference the absence of the mid height rule like the NS14



I'll have a closer look when I get to that point. There are some other targets too, like people sailing boats that like the NS14s have become expensive too. Like English National 12s and Merlin Rockets.

MIK

To balance out the NS14 images I set up a couple of perspective drawings of the BL.

Balls Laser perspectives (Custom).jpg

As far as the name goes ... this picture is going on an exercise book that Rick is taking (along with the boat) to the Depoe Bay boat show this weekend. In Oregon so a bit of trailing.

People will be able to nominate a name for the new class and write it in the exercise book with their email address.

It will also might be displayed at the Port Townsend show and more can have a shot.

The name that is deemed the best by me and/or a group of peers will get the owner a plan for the new boat.

MIK

There's something I don't understand. The NS14 rule you quoted states that the minimum beam at the measurement point is 1.22 metres. Why are you restricting yourself to 1.435 metres at that point?

With minimum depth, and using a 1.22 metre beam restriction at the measurement point, the bottom width could go down to 733 mm.

Originally Posted by Sumbloak

There's something I don't understand. The NS14 rule you quoted states that the minimum beam at the measurement point is 1.22 metres. Why are you restricting yourself to 1.435 metres at that point?

With minimum depth, and using a 1.22 metre beam restriction at the measurement point, the bottom width could go down to 733 mm.

Arrrgh. i dis and added those drawings well after midnight. grrrr

thanks for the correction!

MIK

Thanks MIK, that what I thought the measurement point is to hard to work into a low drag hull without resorting to measurement bumps.

I'm excited about the new design and looking forward to seeing a few pictures from the boatshow over the weekend.

Tim

Corrected.

Makes it look much more possible/passable. Thanks Sumbloak

Untitled.jpg

Hi MIK,

is this of interest for your rigging?

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails

Jörn

Gotta be heavier, and likely to fill with water when you dunk it. Plus, even the Moths haven't managed to come up with a competetive wing rig yet. I'd be a bit iffy about it myself.

@Mik: sections look pretty good. TBH though my 2c is that I'm not sure there's any point limiting it to 14' because it's not going to be as fast as a real NS anyway. Also, I very much prefer the "ye olde real boat" look with the sheer right side up and all. How about doing it Goaty but with NS sections, more or less?

ETA: Sorta like this. Personally, I'd find something like this very appealing. Simple rig that is easy to handle in tight quarters, classic looks, but hull ideas taken from the best racing dinghies. I always thought the old Finn made a great daysailer for one or two adults, except the rig could be a pig to handle sometimes and the boat was way too heavy.

The topsides would probably want to be done in two or three clinker planks, just to ease problems with such severe twist in wide panels, but that's easy to do. So in terms of looks it'd be something like a poor man's Merlin Rocket that had nookie with a Goat.

Originally Posted by joern

Hi MIK,

is this of interest for your rigging?

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails

Jörn

Thanks Jörn,

I wasn't aware of it. I'll be interested when it starts winning regattas That's always the test

It does look complex and expensive but achieving reefing is the first time anyone has done that I think. Very clever.

I'll keep an eye on it.

Michael.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Thanks Jörn,

I wasn't aware of it. I'll be interested when it starts winning regattas That's always the test

It does look complex and expensive but achieving reefing is the first time anyone has done that I think. Very clever.

I'll keep an eye on it.

Michael.

Maybe it will beat the original junk rigs MIK?

Howdy Sumbloak,

Speaking of Merlin Rockets ... I ran into Keith Callaghan who designs Merlins.

We were comparing notes about NS14s and the development of Merlins.

This is his website. He knows Michael McNamara who built the goat sails for Richard's UK goat.

HAZARDOUS series Merlin Rockets by Keith Callaghan

I'm kindof interested about what would happen if someone did a plan for (as an example) and NS14 rule fitting boat that cost $3500 to get on the water. I wonder if it would change the dynamic of the class in terms of the number of sailors.

At the beginning it might mean well turned out boats selling for around the $3500 mark but maybe after the first one start getting a bit older it would be possible to buy a boat that still looks good and works well for half that. For example Sabres have always been cheap to get into because of wooden boats. An NS14 for the price of the spars and fittings of a conventional NS.

Remember that my 1979 NS14 is the boat to beat at the regional club it sails in against much more modern boats. Not everyone wants to win the Nationals

It is always interesting when there's the feeling that it is impossible to match performance ... wonder how close it is possible to go I would think it would be possible to do something that would be faster than my 1979 boat.

My thesis is that all the big jumps of performance and concepts about design of the boat components. Much of the "innovation" of the last couple of decades has really been moving to materials that are three times more expensive for a tiny lift in performance.

But real innovations like properly shaped foils, mast/sail response, rotating masts (for some boats), lower rocker, bow down trim so a smaller bodied boat that relies on dynamic lift doesn't drag its stern in light winds, rig adjustability, hulls at 8lbs a foot (in timber) though scow moths managed about 3lbs/ft

I think that new materials have led to zero innovations in terms of creating something that wasn't there before. Moth sailor Ian Ward (who was the first person to sail a bifoiler (up and down in front of the Seaforth Club when there had been a consensus it was impossible) was building wooden hydrofoils for his boat until quite recently.

I really can't think of one new thing that carbon has given us - can anyone? I'm not being rhetorical ... I'm trying to think.

Haha ... sorry ... I can't avoid my hobbyhorse rant

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I really can't think of one new thing that carbon has given us - can anyone? I'm not being rhetorical ... I'm trying to think.

Haha ... sorry ... I can't avoid my hobbyhorse rant

MIK

I can MIK. A pile of junk that cannot be recycled.