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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Hello Ian,

    The Sabre was designed in 1974.

    The Laser was designed in 1971.

    Both designs are over 35 years old. Looking at, for example, the developmental skiff classes, the boats have changed significantly over the years. I for one would be very interested to see what ideas Mik has if thinking about a 100% fast sailing dinghy whilst trying to keep costs down, not overcomplicate the rigging and to make it a manageble build.

    Best regards,

    Joost
    Yes, very much what I'd like to know - what has been learnt in the last 35 years that isn't in the direction of complication and more and more exotic materials about how to make a boat perform well?

    Ian

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  3. #17
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    Joost is right. While the Sabre is a nice class boat, it has had strong competition from the one design Laser and is only sailed in small pockets of Australia. It doesn't have an unstayed mast. It is relatively heavy...look at those side tank seats. The hull shape is not what a modern dinghy looks like and it's not a skiff.

    The one thing the Sabre had in its favour was that it could be built cheaply, but that was once upon a time now. These days, there are professional hull builders who have tweaked the design rules and home built boats are not as competitive as they once were.

    Fresh thinking is needed for a fast, simple, cheap-to-home-build single hander. The Truc 12 comes quite close to what I'd personally like, but is still missing the mark. For one thing it is expensive and can't be home built.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Yes, very much what I'd like to know - what has been learnt in the last 35 years that isn't in the direction of complication and more and more exotic materials about how to make a boat perform well?

    Ian
    We did have a discussion about this WRT either the GIS or the Raid41.

    Basically the things that have been learned are about rocker, volume distribution, behaviour with different weights, a different idea about where planing lift comes from and the way boats behave when under pressure in bigger waves and winds.

    All the are very closely related and have been part of the thinking. The result is boats that plane sooner, spend less time transitioning and are much easier to keep heading in the right direction when pressed upwind and down.

    Much of this was pioneered by restricted classes where there is considerable latitude to change hullshape. The classes that have been most influential are Moth (number 1) and then in no particular order and biased towards what I know the most about - NS14, Cherub (particularly the UK rule ones), National 12, 18ft skiffs. There are probably others, but not a huge number.

    Other areas that have been fundamental are foil and rig development to make boats faster and easier to handle.

    Yacht design with the supposedly "radical" Open 60s etc are still back in the 1970s compared to dinghy design, though some of the features are sneaking through. Though their foils are rather interesting.

    A lot of the fundamental improvement of design has been obscured by technology of exotic materials and more and more expensive bits and pieces. But everything can be achieved without excessive cost because it can all be done in wood and string just the same.

    MIK

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    I think it should fly with the 8.1 m2 Rooster Sailing special!!!
    You guys are just crazy.

    (as far as the naming goes)

    MIK

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Without having had a good enough look to see if this is true:

    Doesn't this 12-13 ft simple, light, build yourself ply dinghy exist already in the Sabre? A new design at this size would need to offer significant advances in simplicity,speed and cost of build plus performance with versatility in use on the water. What is possible?

    I know Mik has some experience with the Sabre, where does it fit within (or outside) his vision of what people are asking for here and what he might come up with?

    Ian
    The woodwork skills level just goes down and down. So the goatish starting point makes a lot of sense.

    Also the excessive use of specifications and measurement points to decide whether a boat "complies" is a barrier.

    I really don't expect getting a huge jump in performance - the only real way is to go more extreme than the laser and then you eliminate regular sailors.

    But something easier to build and set up so that the materials are cheapish, and rig much cheaper would be nice. And if can get the nice handling of the Goat tied into that .. then I would be pretty happy.

    Whether it beats a Laser around a course or not. The problem is that the Laser has millions of hours of refinement of sailing methods and setup. Even with the design compromises of the Laser - heavy, old shape - requirement for tall and heavy guys - that level of refinement takes a lot of beating.

    So idea is not to compete on performance, unless a restricted class rule is formulated to allow optimisation over time.

    MIK

  7. #21
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    Hello Mik,

    The great thing about how the GIS is put together is ease and speed of building. I am currently working on a 12 ft scow (the Chickadee by Chris Koper) and spent just 5 hours working together with a friend (so 10 hours in total) fixing the boat's skeleton to a building frame ensuring that everything is perfectly straight. The way the goat goes together has no comparison!

    Just day dreaming about this, I see a GIS style boat with a relatively narrower waterline, a bit more flare to get the crew's weight out, same relatively high hull (sort of GIS meets Dan Noyes's Badger?).

    Such a boat being more prone to capsizing (you want to go fast in it and won't hold back), the recovery drill should be similar to a laser.

    What does make sense to me is to have a standardised sail (central supplier?) that works out cheaply.

    Best regards,

    Joost

  8. #22
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    Thanks Joost,

    The thing I am being cautious about is that more flare and a narrower waterline is faster.

    I like that approach a lot.

    However, I remember that Daddles here had trouble assembling the Rowboat because of the extra flare - or that's what he thought it was.

    As you know, the Goat takes some pressure to assemble as you get to the end of SIDES to BULKHEADS. Its not too difficult particularly after a dry run to make sure the method is right.

    But I think a lot of flare probably makes things a bit more tricky for that part of the process and also may mean considerable variation in the final shapes of tank tops or seat tops.

    Trying to hit the right balance.

    MIK

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Hello Mik,

    The great thing about how the GIS is put together is ease and speed of building. I am currently working on a 12 ft scow (the Chickadee by Chris Koper) and spent just 5 hours working together with a friend (so 10 hours in total) fixing the boat's skeleton to a building frame ensuring that everything is perfectly straight. The way the goat goes together has no comparison!

    Just day dreaming about this, I see a GIS style boat with a relatively narrower waterline, a bit more flare to get the crew's weight out, same relatively high hull (sort of GIS meets Dan Noyes's Badger?).

    Such a boat being more prone to capsizing (you want to go fast in it and won't hold back), the recovery drill should be similar to a laser.

    What does make sense to me is to have a standardised sail (central supplier?) that works out cheaply.

    Best regards,

    Joost
    Other than than the cockpit, I'm not sure what the differences are of the Chickadee over the Dabchick (also 12') which was designed by Gerhard Koper (Chris's father). We built 5 Dabchicks, almost side by side, and you won't find anything simpler, not even the GIS! It's pretty much a big surfboard.

    What is the weight of the Chickadee? From memory, the minimum weight of the Dabchick was 80lb (36kg), but I'd have to check.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Thanks Joost,

    The thing I am being cautious about is that more flare and a narrower waterline is faster.

    I like that approach a lot.

    However, I remember that Daddles here had trouble assembling the Rowboat because of the extra flare - or that's what he thought it was.

    As you know, the Goat takes some pressure to assemble as you get to the end of SIDES to BULKHEADS. Its not too difficult particularly after a dry run to make sure the method is right.

    But I think a lot of flare probably makes things a bit more tricky for that part of the process and also may mean considerable variation in the final shapes of tank tops or seat tops.

    Trying to hit the right balance.

    MIK
    Hello Mik,

    What about a vertical wedge shape forming the first part of the stem with a rounded capping fitted after the plywood is on? That way there is already some flare in it from the beginning.

    Agree that the flare shouldn't be too extreme, perhaps a bit more that on the GIS though.

    Joost

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Other than than the cockpit, I'm not sure what the differences are of the Chickadee over the Dabchick (also 12') which was designed by Gerhard Koper (Chris's father). We built 5 Dabchicks, almost side by side, and you won't find anything simpler, not even the GIS! It's pretty much a big surfboard.

    What is the weight of the Chickadee? From memory, the minimum weight of the Dabchick was 80lb (36kg), but I'd have to check.
    Main dimensions (length and beam) are approximately the same.

    Indeed a different deck (the Chickadee has a sloping deck + dished dockpit whereas the Dabchick's deck is flat throughout).

    Further to this:
    - the sides are a bit higher (to allow for the shallow cockpit)
    - the lines (both above and underwater) have been improved (also with Gerhard Koper's input by way of a note in his files that he left his son)
    - sailarea is one square meter more (6.5 m2 versus 5.5 m2), also in line with Gerhard Koper's suggestions.

    Not sure how the weight will work out, trying to keep everthing as light as possible but the scales will have the final verdict.

    Minimum weight of the Dabchick is 85 lbs (38.6 kg).
    Last edited by Joost; 17th May 2011 at 10:22 PM. Reason: spelling errors

  12. #26
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    The reversed bow is a bit of an affectation, but it says this boat is different as soon as you see it.

  13. #27
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    Hello MIK,

    Exiting stuff!

    Just had a side by side comparison with the drawing of the 12 ft Son of a Goat:

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/s...0/index10.html

    Indeed something different!

    If I may ask:
    - main dimensions
    - rigging
    - philosofy/ideas behind the design

    Best wishes,

    Joost

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post


    The reversed bow is a bit of an affectation, but it says this boat is different as soon as you see it.
    I'm liking your direction Mik. The reverse bow and cut back transom is very modern, and some NS14 influence there. I also like that you've reduced the sheer height to keep windage down, but high enough to keep backsides off the waves. This should also help to manage the twist force during assembly.

    From what I've observed in the cat videos, the reverse bow seems to work well when reaching and running downwind. Instead of riding up the wave and stalling like a conventional bow, it seems to cut through the top of the wave which places the boat on top of the wave sooner, and therefore in a position to surf the wave sooner. So not only does it look cool, I think it should be fast too.

    Keep it going, this is the right direction!!!!!

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Main dimensions (length and beam) are approximately the same.

    Indeed a different deck (the Chickadee has a sloping deck + dished dockpit whereas the Dabchick's deck is flat throughout).

    Further to this:
    - the sides are a bit higher (to allow for the shallow cockpit)
    - the lines (both above and underwater) have been improved (also with Gerhard Koper's input by way of a note in his files that he left his son)
    - sailarea is one square meter more (6.5 m2 versus 5.5 m2), also in line with Gerhard Koper's suggestions.

    Not sure how the weight will work out, trying to keep everthing as light as possible but the scales will have the final verdict.

    Minimum weight of the Dabchick is 85 lbs (38.6 kg).
    Yes, you are correct about the weight Joost. However, the Dabchick's deck is convex, not flat, which gets rid of water really fast. The extra sail area of the Chickadee should make for some exciting (and very wet) sailing, as the Dabchick is no slouch.

  16. #30
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    Interesting! I'm not immersed in sailing culture, so I have little frame of reference. But this new design is clearly modern and looks very racy.

    But I humbly submit that it no longer evokes the GIS aesthetic and would need a name other than Son of Goat. The Goat's plumb bow and elegant sheer are iconic and are echoed in the MSD Rowboat. The 12er here comes from different DNA.

    But that being said, I'm excited to see where this goes.
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

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