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  1. #76
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    Thankyou all for your spurring on.

    I'm currently working on the OzRacerRV which is the first sailboat I have done for some time.

    I did like some things about the truc. The downsides I've seen is a photo with an adult and teenager aboard and half the cockpit floor is wet from water coming in the stern.

    Also it is an old style hullshape comparable with an Australian 1980's form. "big wide planing surfaces" as the back of the boat have been shown to be quite inefficient and don't take the advantages of the balanced handling in waves and when heeled of more modern shapes with more evenly distributed hull volume. Also doesn't get the easy movement through to "planing" speeds without pause or transition to bow-up trim to get the stern to the right angle to develop enough lift. Much better to have volume and surface through the body and bow of the boat because those areas are already at the right angle to get lift without a wild bow up trim.

    The NS14, non foil skiff moths, UK Cherub, National 12, 49er, 29er and others have moved well away from the 1980 hullforms reducing the volume of the hull above the water, rocker, increasing the flatter surface (In a narrow way - more U shaped than veed) up into the bow of the boat

    This is the 29er stern



    But then ... it's all talk from me until I actually do something

    As for what was once the OZ PDRacer Mk3 - It will now be labelled the OzRacerRV.

    Then next task is tax for my mother who can't see it well enough.

    Then I'll need some project to keep me going. I think I will keep the idea separate from the Son of Goat - because the overlap is uncertain and as soon as I link it to the Goat I put a great deal of pressure on myself ... What if it isn't as good as the Goat!?!

    Or doesn't overlap with the Goat's functions enough.

    I can always label it after it shows that it works well enough to deserve a particular name.

    Michael

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    As far as a low cost club racer goes, there is the point that MIK originally
    designed the Goat to work with a second-hand Laser rig. The 'proper'
    balanced lug is faster, but the laser is an option for those who insist on a
    'modern' rig...
    cheers
    Hehe, the irony is that Mik's balanced lug is probably the more modern rig . While I have never seen a pic of the GIS with the Laser rig, nor has it been tested as to which would be faster, I think that would be a fair asumption. Allowing for small inefficiencies in the lug sail, at 9.7 sqm it has a few more horsepowers than the Laser std at 7.06 sqm.

  4. #78
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    Exactly ... when I designed it I though .. two people NS14 has 100 square feet.

    Lose something out of the lack of modern sail controls on the lug ... so up to 105 square feet.

    Also assumption that the single sail would be more powerful in many conditions than the two sail rig of the NS14. Fast boats only carry one sail ... right!? There is some advantage in the sloop for crosswind reaching ... but all other points it seems to be a nett loser.

    But the general idea was that the sail would be less adjustable because of the simple controls so the area was tweaked up a little. AND you can reef it.

    Regarding travellers ... you seldom see travellers in racing dinghies these days. Most are vang sheeting ... so boom vang takes all the up and down load and the sheet only brings the boom in and out.

    While a properly located downhaul on the lug can prevent excessive twist there is still some upwind advantage from being able to pull the boom down because of the traveller. But if I designed a boat with a modern bermudan mainsail with vang I would just use a bridle with a loop in the middle. Just the like OzRacer sprit rig. It is so low cost.

    MIK

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post

    Regarding travellers ... you seldom see travellers in racing dinghies these days. Most are vang sheeting ... so boom vang takes all the up and down load and the sheet only brings the boom in and out.

    While a properly located downhaul on the lug can prevent excessive twist there is still some upwind advantage from being able to pull the boom down because of the traveller. But if I designed a boat with a modern bermudan mainsail with vang I would just use a bridle with a loop in the middle. Just the like OzRacer sprit rig. It is so low cost.MIK
    Hi Mik, good to have you weigh in with your thoughts. With the Laser rig and the rope traveler like we have on the GIS, we vang sheet a lot as per your explanation above. This is because the Laser sail has lots of luff curve and we need to bend the mast, even in quite light winds. However, the vang pushes the mast forward to bend the mast but the leech doesn't get quite enough tension, so sometimes we have to release some vang and use mainsheet to create leech tension from the mast tip. Usually this is in medium winds when we can hold the boom down block to block all the time. In the absence of a traveler, the boom would want to come in to the centre. With the Laser rig this kills performance, so like the GIS, the traveler needs to be bar tight all the time to hold the boom out at the corner.

    Is the bridle you mentioned similar to the one on the 49er/29er?

  6. #80
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    Laser, Laser, Laser... I don't get it. Clearly the Laser is a great little boat. But all this talk about a StorerBoat using Laser rigs is a bit off putting to me. The option was/is there for the GIS and it hasn't gotten much traction. The PDR world is totally about developmental freedom from the waterline up and it doesn't seem to be dominated by used Laser rigs.

    If the Storer12 must benchmark against the Laser performance-wise, fine. But I think the evidence shows that the StorerBoat builder is more likely to build his own rig than graft some used, hand-me-down, not invented here set-up.

    I guess there's a line reasoning that runs toward economy which assumes that the lower the cost, the more accessible the build. I think there's a economic floor below which cost savings are moot. Consider the OzRacer MkII vs. III. Once MIK made the jump to an additional sheet of ply, the design freedom opened up. I doubt many potential builders will be turned away by the additional cost. Hey, I'm not made of money. But if I can afford to build a $500 boat, I can afford to build a $600 boat. Or I can't afford either. I think the same will hold true for a Storer12. If it will cost on the order of $2000-4000 to build, will the cost delta between a used Laser rig and a bespoke rig really be a barrier to entry?

    MIK, you see I can't bring myself to refer to the Laser-like concept as a Son-of-Goat. I think you know that many Goats get used as single handers despite your design brief. In MY humble opinion, the true GIS Jr. is the single hander/junior version of the plumb bow, graceful sheer, highly utilitarian, yet sporty-responsive Goat that so many of us love. Now that my 3D GIS hull is consuming the entirety of my garage, I can honestly say that I would have built an SOG over the GIS if both were available a year and a half ago.

    A Laser wannabe? Why not just buy a used Laser and call it a day?
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  7. #81
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    As MIK has indicated, this design proposal is not regarding the SOG at all, but a more sailing performance oriented sail boat with a different function (i.e. not all-round performance in a traditional looking package).

    We have a couple of threads discussing a smaller 12 ft boat and I believe that the discussion concerning a smaller 12 ft boat has always been two part:
    - on the one hand a smaller GIS, called SOG, which would be a smaller version of the GIS sporting the same rig, having the same layout and especially having the same function (i.e. good sailing qualities and decent rower).
    - on the other hand a 12 footer that is more sailing oriented aimed at maximum performance (within the parameters of cost effectiveness and ease of construction).

    A few people (including me!) shouting "Laser, laser, laser" has got to do with a couple of things:
    - lot of rigging options (4 different rigs). When you want to outfit the boat with two different rigs, for example to meet the family requirements, it will be a cost efficient solution.
    - relatively cheap replica parts (spars and sails). A performance boat would be expected to have a more modern rig (please note that I am not saying that the GIS's lug is not performing, at the contrary, I am very much taken by the performance it delivers).

    A few post back (page 1 actually of this thread), I have listed the following cost analysis:

    What may make sense for the fast "wooden laser" one is to use the laser rig. A lot of it can be obtained either second hand or one can purchase (at least here in Europe) replica parts. A replica Laser sail only cost GBP 179, a lower mast GBP 120, an upper mast GBP 85 and a boom GBP 98: total GBP 482 (EUR 550 / AUD 735). For comparison's sake, I paid USD 550 (EUR 385 / AUD 510) for my GIS sail alone and on top of that EUR 111 (USD 160 / AUD 150) import duties!

    If not wanting to use the Laser sail, it would make sense to me to at least use the (replica) spars: wood construction would both be heavy and would ask more of one's woodworking skills (bird mouth construction, I just don't have the tools to do this kind of work); custom alu mast or carbon mast would come it quite costly (in my part of the world it is easy to obtain a Laser mast but quite difficult to get properly graded alu).

    The costs of the hull should be far below 2000 (I estimate that it will use the best of 4 sheets of plywood and some timber).

    One final note: the same as you I would never consider the Laser rig for a true 12 ft SOG as it would deserve homemade spars and a nice lug sail (as well as a set of good oars). The boat we are discussing is to be a wet sporty sailing machine and a different rig would be appropriate. Considering this, it may (not should!) make sense using an existing easily commercial available rig, and why not a Laser's.

    Best regards,

    Joost

  8. #82
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    Just been reading from page 1 again to see the development in our discussion. Below post is from May 2011. The post below (not included here) from Dave is also worthwhile reading!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Hello MIK,

    If I remember correctly, you were originally, when the discussion was first started, thinking of designing two 12 ft boats: a fast one aimed at single handed all out sailing and a more sedate one as a smaller familly cruiser.

    This could indeed make the design process easier as there is less compromise for each boat.

    What may make sense for the fast "wooden laser" one is to use the laser rig. A lot of it can be obtained either second hand or one can purchase (at least here in Europe) replica parts. A replica Laser sail only cost GBP 179, a lower mast GBP 120, an upper mast GBP 85 and a boom GBP 98: total GBP 482 (EUR 550 / AUD 735). For comparison's sake, I paid USD 550 (EUR 385 / AUD 510) for my GIS sail alone and on top of that EUR 111 (USD 160 / AUD 150) import duties!

    Best regards,

    Joost
    Last edited by Joost; 25th April 2012 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Introduction expanded

  9. #83
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    I've no particular candle for Lasers.
    My comment was purely in response to DuncanG in post #62.
    Looking for a low-cost fleet boat as a step up from the Optimists.

    GIS (or similar) looks a simple enough build for a wide range of folks to say
    "I could make that". The second-hand rig adds "I could afford to build that".
    And still think they have a 'modern' rigged boat that will hold its value.
    I think the array of different materials & shapes & accuracy contained in a
    sailing rig is fairly daunting for most potential first-time builders.

    In this country at least, cost is still a perceived barrier to sailing anything.
    Bonus of GIS is a boat that can do a -lot- more than the average club racer,
    and as it is already about as light and tweaked as the design can get, there
    would be very little advantage to those people with deeper pockets.

    North Moreton Bay gets very lumpy in any wind with "East" in its name.
    GIS is high-sided enough to look & feel safe, and slippery enough to keep
    moving in the rough with a smaller sail.
    cheers
    Alan J

  10. #84
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    The Laser rig is rather old fashioned though ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.

    I'm thinking that if the spars can be home made without being tooooo expensive then a bought sail is probably tolerable.

    Assuming the Sexiness of the rig makes it attractive enough to justify the cost of the sail.

    Michael

  11. #85
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    ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.
    THAT'S the Storer Way! Tech meets Trad and vice versa.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The Laser rig is rather old fashioned though ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.

    I'm thinking that if the spars can be home made without being tooooo expensive then a bought sail is probably tolerable.

    Assuming the Sexiness of the rig makes it attractive enough to justify the cost of the sail.

    Michael
    Much looking forward to your ideas! I am all for it as long as it is somewhat cost efficient and/or the rig is more high tech. Are you considering 2 sail sizes for the boat making it interesting for a large audience?

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The Laser rig is rather old fashioned though ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.

    I'm thinking that if the spars can be home made without being tooooo expensive then a bought sail is probably tolerable.

    Assuming the Sexiness of the rig makes it attractive enough to justify the cost of the sail.

    Michael
    I'm a big supporter of that thinking Mik and intrigued by what you might come up with because I am very aware of the stupid money professionally made sails can cost these days.

  14. #88
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    I must admit, the attractiveness of a 'Laser' (or any mass produced low cost sail) has been reduced since I discovered the availability of Sailrite kits.

    Making my PDR sail from a single large polytarp sheet was relatively straight forward. The thing that puts me off making one from Dacron is the need to shape and stitch together the narrower panels. Like anything with boat building, once I do it I will probably wonder what I was worried about, but at this point I wouldn't like to take to a couple of hundred dollars worth of dacron and come out with a crooked sail. Same argument applies for plywood I suppose, and that seems to work out OK, so my argument is probably invalid

    I'm seriously considering building Radosław Werszko's 3.8M dinghy, mainly since there don't seem to be any sailing performance reports around, and I'd like to find out what it is like

    Speaking of Moreton Bay sailing, there are lots of sandbars and long shallow mudflat areas so a kick-up centreboard seems to be quite important - I'm not sure how easily this could be incorporated into a Storer boat, and what performance implications it might have.

  15. #89
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    It is heavy compared to your current boat.

    This will make it FEEL very different. If the foils are good it could be quite a good sailor.

    With the jib and mainsail the rig will be more expensive and it will take much more time to rig and derig.

    MIK

  16. #90
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    Mik

    I've often wondered if a tall, narrower version of the sprit rig like on the Optimist would work? However, to give it a more modern look, instead of the head being peaked up, keep it square and parallel to the boom. To give more shape to the taller narrower sail, some full length battens? I reckon it could look pretty sexy

    To make the sail simple to construct, battens are applied to the sail with sail repair tape. There are simple techniques to do this, but the process eliminates the need to sew pockets in the sail.

    Attachment 206504
    Last edited by woodeneye; 27th April 2012 at 03:48 PM. Reason: added diagram

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