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  1. #106
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    I'm thinking of getting me one of those. Great for keeping fit. (The sailboard that is, not the 18 footer!) There are lots of quite nice ones for sale at cheap prices as the young-uns are ditching them in favour of kites.

    Same thing happening with the venerable Star, now that it's been ditched as an Olympic class. Quite sad really. I've seen advertised two for the price of a quarter of one, each with modern new rig and on trailers. Downside is that one needs to go to Africa to look for for a big hairy silverback crew hand. Although if you just wanted to be as a club racer you could just take two mates along with a shifting ballast of frothy amber stuff.

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  3. #107
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    One also has to question how much of the ability of the batten-supported
    square top is due to the batten, and how much due to the material itself.
    As far as I can make out, the modern generation of racing sail material is
    relatively stiff, almost self-supporting.
    A far cry from the affordable 'floppy' materials available to the family budget.
    What works with the good stuff, may not work with the affordable...
    cheers
    Alan J

  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    One also has to question how much of the ability of the batten-supported
    square top is due to the batten, and how much due to the material itself.
    As far as I can make out, the modern generation of racing sail material is
    relatively stiff, almost self-supporting.
    A far cry from the affordable 'floppy' materials available to the family budget.
    What works with the good stuff, may not work with the affordable...
    cheers
    Alan J
    Hi Alan
    There is no support at all from the material used. The Moth sail in post 101 is made from cuban fibre which is ultra light weight and like tissue paper in texture.

    One of the main benefits of the square top is the automatic depowering you get from the twist-off that happens in gusts. The downside is that the upper leach is less controllable than a round top in upwind mode. However, downwind in a light to medium breeze there is a pumping action from the leach flicking, a very desirable thing.

  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    One also has to question how much of the ability of the batten-supported
    square top is due to the batten, and how much due to the material itself.
    As far as I can make out, the modern generation of racing sail material is
    relatively stiff, almost self-supporting.
    A far cry from the affordable 'floppy' materials available to the family budget.
    What works with the good stuff, may not work with the affordable...
    cheers
    Alan J
    We just have to trust MIK to come up with a good solution. A few posts back, on page 6, MIK posted that he has some ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The Laser rig is rather old fashioned though ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.

    I'm thinking that if the spars can be home made without being tooooo expensive then a bought sail is probably tolerable.

    Assuming the Sexiness of the rig makes it attractive enough to justify the cost of the sail.

    Michael
    So, I guess we need to have some patience waiting for Michael to work out his ideas on paper (or rather his laptop). I for one am very curious about the concept(s) he will come up with combining a high tech sail with home made spars (if the rig is sexy, I agree that the costs of such a sail would be justified, especially if the spars can be home made).

    Joost

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    ........I for one am very curious about the concept(s) he will come up with combining a high tech sail with home made spars (if the rig is sexy, I agree that the costs of such a sail would be justified, especially if the spars can be home made).

    Joost
    And a sexy sticker on the sail won't necessarily qualify...

  7. #111
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    Agreed!

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Square top sprit boomed sail works. Here is the squaretop spritboomed mizzen sail on my Apple 16. Has one jiffy reef. Leech cut slightly hollow to avoid more battens. Has a plastic track glued onto the back of the mast to take slugs sewn onto the luff. Flattens nicely in a breeze with the snotter, downhaul and bendy fibreglass mast (Zoom 8 dinghy). Solid tapered wood would do.
    Peter
    Howdy ... square top doesn't work when you want to drop sail. It means that top triangular panel is rigid.



    But if the boat doesn't drop sail apart from derigging ... eg Laser and most off the beach boats ... then no prob.

    I've been thinking about that one!

    For a SOG it doesn't make sense if there is to be an overlapping function with the GIS , but for a little sexy daysailer ... probably no problem. So it is a possibility.

    As for ...



    I think the quadrilateral sprit rig is about the most annoying rig possible! Handling a spar that is aloft is a practical annoyance. I have sailed with them a few times ... but reefing is a pain, also getting the sail and spar down is a bit tricky when there is wind blowing. You have a sail to handle as it comes down in the boat but also a spar that is bouncing around as the top part of the sail flogs.

    It is an OK rig on paper, but compared to the docility of any rig where the spars are attached to the edges of the sail ... I don't really like much.

    This from AJ is just nice thinking!!!!

    One also has to question how much of the ability of the batten-supported
    square top is due to the batten, and how much due to the material itself.
    As far as I can make out, the modern generation of racing sail material is
    relatively stiff, almost self-supporting.
    A far cry from the affordable 'floppy' materials available to the family budget.
    What works with the good stuff, may not work with the affordable...
    cheers
    Alan J
    Cheers
    MIK

  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Hi Alan
    There is no support at all from the material used. The Moth sail in post 101 is made from cuban fibre which is ultra light weight and like tissue paper in texture.

    One of the main benefits of the square top is the automatic depowering you get from the twist-off that happens in gusts. The downside is that the upper leach is less controllable than a round top in upwind mode. However, downwind in a light to medium breeze there is a pumping action from the leach flicking, a very desirable thing.


    G'day Bruce
    I must confess to not haunting racing clubs these days - just what I observe
    in passing by from time to time. Most of what I've seen in recent years has
    been quite stiff. Am guessing one reason for choosing C/F sail cloth would be
    zero stretch once spread tight by battens. So no bagging in the wind.
    But also no sagging other than the depowering rotation you describe.

    My one attempt at anything of the sort finished up being a gunter.
    It worked really rather well. The cat wearing it is 6'1" long x 3'10" wide.
    -Almost-, but not quite, fit in the 6x4 box trailer.
    Couldn't bring myself to saw off the tips of the hulls to make it fit.
    cheers
    Alan
    Last edited by b.o.a.t.; 6th May 2012 at 08:56 PM. Reason: fix spelin... spellik... spelling and figured out the batten pocketing

  10. #114
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    Hi Allan, not a bad looking sail at all! The boat does have a certain cute factor.

    How did it sail? Being quite narrow, I imagine that it tacked more like a mono than a cat?

  11. #115
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    My daughter found it easy to sail (she was about 10y/o & the pic was her
    second ever solo on about 10mins instruction - smart kid).
    Yes, it tacked more like a mono. I think that's because it was two flat bottomed
    skiff hulls loosely proportioned off Phil Bolger's Light Schooner, and only about
    1.5 bottom-widths apart. Only drew about 2 or 3 inches. So none of that
    nasty resistance to turning encountered on deeper, narrow hulled cats.

    Anyway, I actually put the pic up to show what I felt was getting close to the
    limits of batten supported roach in cheap material. That's on a little sail in light
    wind. The larger sail for the 12footer could be made to stand up with more
    battens of better quality. It hadn't occurred to me that a soft roach at the
    masthead could be a Good Thing in the way you describe the Moth's.
    cheers
    Alan

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Yes, you are correct about the weight Joost. However, the Dabchick's deck is convex, not flat, which gets rid of water really fast. The extra sail area of the Chickadee should make for some exciting (and very wet) sailing, as the Dabchick is no slouch.
    Especially for you Bruce (my apologies for the small sidestep, but the rig/sail may be of interest here anyway in our discussion):




    Last edited by Joost; 8th May 2012 at 04:53 AM. Reason: bit more of an explanation

  13. #117
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    Howdy ... square top doesn't work when you want to drop sail. It means that top triangular panel is rigid.


    Yep, but the little bit sticking up is not a problem for me. I've been thinking that the top slug attachment to the sail could be replaced by a shackle. The halyard would be tied to the slug, not the sail, run from the slug through the shackle and then through the halyard sheave. Tension holds the sail shackle against the slug and mast. Needs a strong slug. Maybe need to make one. When the sail is lowered the head would fall down as the halyard going through the shackle loosens, and the head would not be held to the track by any firm attachment. The top batten would lie down on the rest of the sail. ( or or ?)
    Peter

  14. #118
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    Ha, the Chickadee. Like the original Dabchick which has clearly inspired the Chickadee, the rig is a big step up from the original design. When I sailed the Dabchick as a junior, we didn't have the full length batten at the top, which limited the amount of roach sailmakers could play with. All considering they did quite a good job though.

    A similar laminate is available here in large hardware chains, which I believe could be used for sails, although sewing the stuff could be a challenge for anything but a professional overlocker. I wonder if there is a way of constructing such a sail without sewing?

    Back to the Chickadee, the length and sail area is the same as the Dabchick's. The freeboard is slightly more and there is more rocker. I'm just wondering how the added dished cockpit would feel in light winds compared to the Dabchick's flat cockpit?

    Here is a pic of the Dabchick, designed by the father of Chickadee's designer, Gerard Koper in the 60's. A hugely successful design that put the lid on any chance of the Optimist succeeding in South Africa to the extent it did overseas.

    Attachment 207718 Nice trim being shown by this young sailor. Note tiller position. The boom seems to higher than I remember, but she may be a small person.

  15. #119
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    A bit more sail area on the Chickadee: the Dabchick has 5.6m2 whereas the Chickadee sports 6.5 m2. Most of the sail area has been added in the roach of the mainsail which is appr. 5 m2.

    Overall dimensions of the boat are indeed the same with a bit more freeboard and the dished cockpit added to the Chickadee. The hull lines have also been updated, all per the ideas of Chris Koper supported by his father's notes (Jack Koper).

    I have not sailed her yet (this was the test rigging) but hope to sail her the coming weekend. Should be a nice boat for my childeren when they have grown up a bit and for my girlfriend. I am sure I will have fun with it in a good blow as well.

    Anyway, still looking for another nice 12 ft boat to add to the fleet and I am really looking forward to MIK's first sketches.

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    A bit more sail area on the Chickadee: the Dabchick has 5.6m2 whereas the Chickadee sports 6.5 m2. Most of the sail area has been added in the roach of the mainsail which is appr. 5 m2.

    Overall dimensions of the boat are indeed the same with a bit more freeboard and the dished cockpit added to the Chickadee. The hull lines have also been updated, all per the ideas of Chris Koper supported by his father's notes (Jack Koper).

    I have not sailed her yet (this was the test rigging) but hope to sail her the coming weekend. Should be a nice boat for my childeren when they have grown up a bit and for my girlfriend. I am sure I will have fun with it in a good blow as well.

    Anyway, still looking for another nice 12 ft boat to add to the fleet and I am really looking forward to MIK's first sketches.
    Hi Joost
    I did not realise this was your boat! Did you build it? If so did you blog its construction, as I'd love to see it. Reason being is that my father and I built 5 Dabchicks back to back.

    Thanks for the update on the rig size. 1 sqm may not seem much, but it is quite a lot for a little boat, so more than just from tweaking the roach. Chris Koper must be targetting this boat for 2-up sailing, whereas I think the Dabchick has now evolved to 1-up only for all major regattas. Like all Koper designs, the Chickadee has a nicely proportioned rig. You will all love this boat off the wind, which is where the scow really excells. We Dabchick sailors used to love screaming past much bigger boats on the reaches Around a full sized standard Olympic (Triangle, Sausage, Triangle) course, we would finish about 2 legs behind the Fireballs, and about the same distance again (2 legs) in front of the Mirrors. On a reach above 15 kts, with 1-up, we were faster than an OK dinghy, Enterprise, and sometimes faster than a Finn, but you had to sail it well and very flat. Upwind you had to rest it on it's chine, so very slightly heeled and weight forward in flat water, but back somewhat in a big chop. Off wind, you needed to be quite far back to lift up the widish bow and get her sitting on that narrowish run aft section and skim over the wave tops, quite literally! The Chickadee looks like it would be similar. I think when the wind comes up, everyone will be wanting to sail your Chickadee

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