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  1. #1
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    Default Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

    Mik
    Bearing in mind the constant threeway confrontation in my head between "act your age" (68), "a man should know his limitations" (Eastwood) and the overpowering need for speed and edge dwelling, I have brought to mind a conversation we had at some stage about a more suitable, shorter GIS for old farts.

    Any movement there?

    Presha, presha, grin

    Nemo

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  3. #2
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    The potential 12ft Son of Goat is a tricky design problem that I think is exciting but I just can't get it straight in my head.

    It has to sail really well one up.
    Has to sail very well two up
    Has to row fairly well
    Has to be a weight in proportion to its length - which means a simple interior layout like the goat.
    Take a small outboard.

    Chuck at Duckworks forwarded me a post from his forum a few weeks ago. Someone was talking about a wooden Laser and using my weights and construction as an example.

    Not strictly a Laser of course ... but the criteria of
    Being an efficient (I did write fast .. but the Laser is not really fast) course racing boat
    But also fun for recreational sailing.
    Cheaper than alternatives like the Paper Jet (a nice boat, but a conventional dinghy rig sucks up a lot of money and we have the background of making alternatives that are still quick boats).

    That might be a simpler way to start.

    One of the problems with the SOG is I don't really know what it is to be ... a rampaging single handed boat, or a family cruiser. The GIS gets used for both by different ppl. Most seem to be singlehanded a lot of the time, which wasn't the original idea, but might be the reality for most sailing. But it does have the capacity for the extra bods.

    Maybe if I think about the "wooden laser" concept it might mean that then doinng the Son of Goat later would allow it to be a more middle of the road beast to balance out the different requirements.

    MIK

  4. #3
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    Default Ok

    Mik

    OK a full GIS it is to be in October at Mt Barker and I'll put a permanent first reef in until i can handle it. (and practice recovery after recovery when the water gets warmer here in Vic.
    Nemo

  5. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    One of the problems with the SOG is I don't really know what it is to be ... a rampaging single handed boat, or a family cruiser. The GIS gets used for both by different ppl. Most seem to be singlehanded a lot of the time, which wasn't the original idea, but might be the reality for most sailing. But it does have the capacity for the extra bods.

    Maybe if I think about the "wooden laser" concept it might mean that then doinng the Son of Goat later would allow it to be a more middle of the road beast to balance out the different requirements.

    MIK
    Hello MIK,

    If I remember correctly, you were originally, when the discussion was first started, thinking of designing two 12 ft boats: a fast one aimed at single handed all out sailing and a more sedate one as a smaller familly cruiser.

    This could indeed make the design process easier as there is less compromise for each boat.

    What may make sense for the fast "wooden laser" one is to use the laser rig. A lot of it can be obtained either second hand or one can purchase (at least here in Europe) replica parts. A replica Laser sail only cost GBP 179, a lower mast GBP 120, an upper mast GBP 85 and a boom GBP 98: total GBP 482 (EUR 550 / AUD 735). For comparison's sake, I paid USD 550 (EUR 385 / AUD 510) for my GIS sail alone and on top of that EUR 111 (USD 160 / AUD 150) import duties!

    Best regards,

    Joost

  6. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    ...the problems with the SOG is I don't really know what it is to be ... a rampaging single handed boat, or a family cruiser.
    Quite the opposite ends of the spectrum! Personally, I don't think family cruiser is what people have been asking for. Any more than two-up on any sort of a regular basis points to the GIS as the right boat. Or an OozeGooze!

    A rampaging single hander that can also accommodate two for recreational sailing or for side-by-side training sounds like the mission to me. Skip the rowing and the outboard.

    My personal wish is for something my kids can handle and enjoy, either alone, together (as longer as I'm in wish mode) or with Dad. Even better if they're sailing circles AROUND Dad while he cruises along in his Goat. Thankfully, my kids are still a little too young since my goat is still embryonic.
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  7. #6
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    My personal choice would be to fill a niche for a fast, cheap to build "wooden Laser" sailing boat, that could possibly be rowed or have a small outboard fitted.

    I agree with Joost. The off-the-shelf Laser rigs are a great idea, as that provides 4 different rigs to choose from, and they all use the same mast position. Sails are really cheap if the non-legal Laser sails are used, eg. Intensity or iSails. They are about US$150 each, and made to Laser specs. Sometimes spars can be picked up with an old "wrecked" Laser. Use the old Laser as a hiking bench . The Laser accomodates two-up quite easily, and in fact the Rules allow two-up sailing, so this should not be a problem for a 12 footer.

    Oh, and give it some sexy hiking wings "for the old farts" as nemo suggests. They'd make great outriggers for the rowlocks as well. Power up with the big Rooster sail and it should fly, or send the nippers out with the 4.7 rig to learn the ropes. Or another two options in between. Talk about flexibility!

    Go on MIK, make it a FAAST one.

  8. #7
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    Hello,

    This seems to go back to your original idea MIK:

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/b...55/index2.html

    Post 17 and further.

    Which I think would be brilliant. 1 laser style fast 100% sailing boat and one smaller GIS style boat.

    I do think that people have been asking for both of these. A fast singlehander makes sense as well as a smaller do-it-all GIS (12 ft means less space required for building and storing, easier to handle hull on shore, less materials). Sometimes, depending on the requirements of the builder/owner, less = more.

    Best wishes,

    Joost

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Go on MIK, make it a FAAST one.
    Yes!!!!!

  10. #9
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  11. #10
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    I think it should fly with the 8.1 m2 Rooster Sailing special!!!

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    I think it should fly with the 8.1 m2 Rooster Sailing special!!!
    Absolutely! Practical too. I see Intensity and iSails also provide non-legal Laser spars as well, so you don't have to pay Laser prices for those, and still have new. Unfortunately, they are only available in the US as far as know.

  13. #12
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    Roostersailing in the UK also carries non-legal Laser parts including spars and such called replicas. The prices I mentioned above are what they charge you for it. Very reasonable in my opinion.

  14. #13
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    Well then, there are great options available.

    And not to forget:

    • All rigs can be reefed (1 or 2 turns around the mast. More than 2 is possible but the top batten will need to be removed. Reefing this way is quite elegant really)
    • the rigs are simple +++
    • the fitting list is simple and short (ie. cheap)
    • the controls such as Cunningham, vang and outhaul are similar to other boats, so kids can learn how they work
    • easy to depower
    • you can rig in under 10 minutes


    However, to use the rigs "out of the box" the current boat as drawn will need a stepping arrangement to suit, or maybe reduce the freeboard?

  15. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost View Post
    Hello,

    This seems to go back to your original idea MIK:

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/b...55/index2.html

    Post 17 and further.

    Which I think would be brilliant. 1 laser style fast 100% sailing boat and one smaller GIS style boat.

    I do think that people have been asking for both of these. A fast singlehander makes sense as well as a smaller do-it-all GIS (12 ft means less space required for building and storing, easier to handle hull on shore, less materials). Sometimes, depending on the requirements of the builder/owner, less = more.

    Best wishes,

    Joost
    Without having had a good enough look to see if this is true:

    Doesn't this 12-13 ft simple, light, build yourself ply dinghy exist already in the Sabre? A new design at this size would need to offer significant advances in simplicity,speed and cost of build plus performance with versatility in use on the water. What is possible?

    I know Mik has some experience with the Sabre, where does it fit within (or outside) his vision of what people are asking for here and what he might come up with?

    Ian

  16. #15
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    Hello Ian,

    The Sabre was designed in 1974.

    The Laser was designed in 1971.

    Both designs are over 35 years old. Looking at, for example, the developmental skiff classes, the boats have changed significantly over the years. I for one would be very interested to see what ideas Mik has if thinking about a 100% fast sailing dinghy whilst trying to keep costs down, not overcomplicate the rigging and to make it a manageble build.

    Best regards,

    Joost

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